Small wind future?

[Ralph Day]

Is this the future of small wind? Got to think in economies of scale, numbers required for contribution to reducing climate change.

http://www.greenwindsolar.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=158&osCsid=6a3aeb1df44003e83dd8f6b0216e0ff5

Ralph

[Rob Beckers]

Neat Raph! :laugh1:

I know.... I know... We can put a battery powered fan in front of this thing, and recharge the batteries from the wind turbine. Then use all the extra energy that it will produce to run a reading light. Wait!! What if we shine some of that light on those solar cells?! It'll make even more energy! :loco:

We need to grid-tie this thing. Small inverter maybe? Then we can backfeed all that excess energy to the grid. If enough people do this we can do away with all those polluting power plants!

Now we're cooking! Until someone switches off the reading light. Haven't worked that part out yet...:confused:

-RoB-

[David Chu]

I used to work in the consumer electronics business and I remember getting pitched this product. I also remember thinking, is this for real? Looks like the man got some people to bite. Good for him.

[Rob Beckers]

Hi David,

Well, as long as everyone recognizes that it's a toy, that has maybe some educational use, there's nothing wrong with it.

There's another category of product that does pass itself off as a 'serious' product, while it too is just a toy (though very expensive ones at that). Case in point is the "Honeywell" / WindTronics wind turbine (http://www.earthtronics.com/honeywell.aspx) that has been the talk of the wind professionals town lately (in a negative way). Note that this thing is not actually made by Honeywell at all, they have in fact absolutely nothing to do with it, but they licensed the use of the name (I guess Honeywell never heard of the term "business ethics", then again, neither did WindTronics, then again, maybe that term is an oxymoron). Clearly they are counting on the reputable name to do their sales, though that name may not be reputable for much longer. It's aggressively being marketed, targeting the green trend and an uninformed but willing public.

It is this type of bogus product that I'm much more concerned about.

-RoB-

[David Chu]

Hey Rob,

You're right. I don't think this product will do much damage to the image of wind power. Even I, a person with as much engineering knowledge as Lindsey Lohan has the right expectations for the product.

I agree with you that there are a lot of companies out there that are marketing bogus products. It's been a fun journey diving into the whole market, but it's really a wild wild west show out there and as long as it remains that way, I don't think small wind can really take off. (When I say take off, I mean turn itself into a billion + market. I think it's hovering around 150 million right now)

- Dave

P.S. The Scirocco looks like and amazing product. 6kw/day? That's more than most of the turbines I've seen do in a year!!!

[Brian Pearl]

Looks like a good gag gift and I'd bite just to see how much power I could get out of the gale force winds I get when I leave the right set of windows open in my building.

I hope someone makes another thing that probably won't work, applying the new mirrored coaxial rotor system they have on the X2 Helicopter to wind power - http://www.popularmechanics.com/breakthrough09/

Even if it doesn't actually do anything more, at least it will look amazing on the sales floor.

[Paul Bailey]

All I can say is that Honeywell Must be geting really desparate to do this for $$$ Money with such a strong reputable background as thev'e had in the past. Must be a new blurred Vision or something . Stop preaching good power outputs in low wind , as it is just not there..

Read Paul Gipe analysis here :http://www.wind-works.org/SmallTurbines/Windtronics760EstimatedGeneration.html

[Joe Blake]

Neat Raph! :laugh1:

I know.... I know... We can put a battery powered fan in front of this thing, and recharge the batteries from the wind turbine. Then use all the extra energy that it will produce to run a reading light. Wait!! What if we shine some of that light on those solar cells?! It'll make even more energy! :loco:



All you do is mount it on the handlebars of your bicycle and ride round the block a few times to charge the batteries, then when you're good and tired from riding the bicycle, you have a shower and go to bed and curl up with a good book and when you drop off to sleep, it doesn't matter if you leave your reading light on, because you can do it all again the next day.



Joe

[Mike Sennett]

Ok...I hear all of you guys load and clear, that you think all of the small wind power market is a joke, but what would a realistic approach be for a guy (like myself) that lives in the windy and sunny (for the most part) of the country. I live in Amarillo Tx and the wind does blow all of the time. I have only been here for 3 years, but it seems that the wind is always at 5mph...and commonly reaches 15-20mph. it just seems to be a shame that this cannot be harnessed in earnest. I had read the horrific reliability and support nightmares of the Skystream, but I became encouraged when I saw the "Honeywell" turbine in Popular Mechanics mag, but you guys say it too is crap....is that the marketing pitch of so much claim of power from low wind, or is it just all a lie and the technology is flawed? I am looking to build a house in the near future, and I would love to harness as much power from the resources of the region will allow, but I do not wish to induce just headaches and disappointment. I am looking build in the city and not out from civilization....so the battery pack idea (I think) is less desired. Thoughts on what you would do, if you were me at the level of current technology and product availability?

[Rob Beckers]

Hi Mike,

It looks like my message got lost a bit, and I'm sorry for that. I'm not saying that small wind turbines are a joke, not at all. In fact, I make part of my living selling small wind turbines and I wouldn't do that if I didn't believe in them.

The real problem at this time is that there are no good performance standards that small wind turbines are held against. For someone new to the market, there is very little to tell them that turbine X will produce Y number of kWh per year, while turbine Z does just 1/3 of that. More than likely, the manufacturer of turbine Z will have the more noisy advertisements touting it great energy production and making claims like "will lower your electricity by 50% or more!". How would you know what's true and what's bogus? That Honeywell turbine is a case in point; it can't possibly live up to the hype the maker claims. In fact, the whole concept is flawed. But loud marketing will get them customers, lots of customers, and they will be very unhappy customers in the long run.

Maybe part of the problem is that it's human nature to want a magic bullet to solve our energy needs, even it only at the household scale. When it comes to wind there unfortunately is no such thing. Of all the renewable energy sources, small wind maybe the hardest, and the most prone to failure or shortfall. Predicting what a set of solar modules on your roof will produce is pretty easy and straight forward. There are no moving parts, there is no real maintenance, and if you use a decent brand you're virtually guaranteed they will still be going strong 20 years down the road. Not so with wind energy.

Putting a small turbine on top of your roof, or bolted to your sidewall, make look like a good idea (after all, the turbine is only a few k$, relatively cheap, and the manufacturer just told you that it will practically pay for itself in a year or two, not to mention that it's a new patented design that makes tall towers obsolete!). They do not work. None of them does. Making energy from wind does take a fairly substantial wind turbine, especially if you are trying to offset an average US household's electricity use. It does take a tall tower (http://www.solacity.com/SiteSelection.htm). It is generally not very cheap, and because of the hostile environment that these moving parts have to live in it takes maintenance, with no guarantee it will still work 20 years down the road.

The message here is not that small wind turbines do not work. They do work, and if it is something you are interested in, it can be very rewarding to see one spinning in your backyard. You have to do your homework though, to find the good ones amongst the many half-baked products. There is no shortcut, it takes a real tower if you want to make real energy. If you live in a place with good wind speeds (http://www.3tier.com/firstlook/) it can be well worth it though!

-RoB-

[Jeff Birkle]

Until I test it myself, It might be that this product does make some power, however the price seems extremely high. Maybe if they cut the price down to at least 25% of what they are asking, it might be worth a try.
Note that this company was talking to the Canadian government about a federal-grant and building a plant to make the product in Windsor that will employ 200 people.

As for comparing small wind turbines, I am in the process of setting up a tower that will run two same size turbines but different manufacturers simultaneously to test output. I will then have a live web with up to date data on each brand for others to view.
Jeff

[Mike Sennett]

So what I am hearing, Solar is the place to put more of an investment (given that there is plenty of sunshine) and skip the hassle and unpredictability of the wind power production. I was hoping that I could implement a dual system, but I highly doubt that my homeowners association would ever permit a massive tower in my yard, even if I were willing to pay for one. I still feel that is a huge shame not to utilize the abundant wind forces on the high Texas plains....really sad.
I know that this site has a policy against product endorsement, but what would the reliable wind turbine makes be (hypothetically speaking....). For that matter who are the better solar array makers. I caught a very shot piece of a news report of a new solar film maker in Colorado, but I don't recall the name of the company. For those of us in the USA, I suppose that should make costs less and supply easier than imports. I hear the silicon based products are a technology of the past(?).
I suppose my problem is that all of this exploding technology is somewhat new, or at least newer to the mainstream of use. There seem to be no (or difficult to find) comparison analysis of systems or individual products for guidance, and the only information is from the bias of the company selling a product. Any help would certainly and greatly appreciated. I would be glad to post a diary of my install and use experiences when that time comes.

[Rob Beckers]

Hi Mike,

There's no policy against discussion specific products, however, we don't want people to gratuitously promote their own products (nor have their brother-in-law do it for them :suspicious: ). If discussing products here can get people to avoid spending money on junk, then so much the better!

What is the annual average wind speed for your location? That is the first thing to look at when evaluating the possibility of wind energy. Just having the feeling that "the wind is always blowing here" doesn't work very well. If I got a buck for everyone that has told me that, only to find out they basically have no wind to speak off, I would be a rich man!

-RoB-

[Mike Sennett]

I completely understand....you don't live here, so let me see if I can dig up some quick numbers to copy and paste. Amarillo is dead center of the northern projection (panhandle) of Texas (USA). It is the high plains area (Flat, Flat Flat!) We are just east of the mountain ranges (Sandias in New Mexico and the Rockies of Colorado). the jet stream blast across thru here from the southwest in the spring and from the northwest in the winter. Quite awesome actually.
According to this chart of the USA:

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/avgwind.html

DATA THROUGH 2002 YRS JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN JUL AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC ANN
AMARILLO, TX 61 12.8 13.8 15.2 15.2 14.5 14.2 12.7 12.0
12.8 12.8 13.0 12.7 13.5

looks like as of data for 61 yrs (till 2002) Amarillo has an average annual wind of 13.5 Miles/hr, and the wind per months are broken down above....never stagnant!

I can also tell you that since I have moved here in the last 3-4yrs, two major wind farms have been built within 20 miles of the city limits. (Someone thinks there is serious wind to generate power here!) Honestly, there is just as much sun here as wind. The problem with this region is old world thinking. This is big oil and natural gas country (as well as Helium). The mind set was that fuel is cheap, so why bother being efficient. I heard a builder as recently as 2007 tell me why bother insulating around the window jams, because the house has got to "breath". Ridiculous, I know and I told him so.
I am equally concerned that if I find the right system, I will not be able to locate a competent installer in this area. I can only hope that the implementation is fairly brainless for someone who knows voltage and such. I am an avid do-it yourself'er, but I try to stay away from 1)water under pressure (not confident in my sweating skills), 2)roof work (just too much at stake if I get it wrong), and 3) high current electrical things like breaker boxes and such.

[Rob Beckers]

Hi Mike,

You have a pretty good wind resource there! 13.5 mph equates to a hair over 6 m/s, and that is at 10 meters (30 feet) height, the standard reporting height for meteo data. Since you are at 3600 feet above sea level the turbine output will diminish by 9% due to the lesser air density (less energy in the moving air), just keep that in mind when evaluating production estimates for turbines.

For example, a 6kW Scirocco (http://www.solacity.com/Scirocco.htm)wind turbine, placed on a 60 feet tower (about as low as I would go, and then only if you have flat terrain with no obstacles), would produce around 1,100 - 1,200 kWh/month on average where you are, including the derating for altitude. On a 100 feet tower production for that same turbine would increase to around 1,300 - 1,400 kWh per month. That's a turbine with an 18' diameter rotor. You have a 30% federal tax credit, so that pays for almost 1/3. I don't know if there's a state incentive as well, you can look it up in the DSIRE database (http://www.dsireusa.org/).

What counts for wind turbines is swept area, which goes with the square of the rotor diameter. For other wind turbines, smaller or larger, you can roughly estimate production by simply scaling it by the swept area.

Of course, if you don't have a place to put a wind turbine this is all moot. If electricity is so cheap that despite the tax credit it will never pay for itself it may not be so attractive either (though there are many other reasons for installing RE, besides economic ones).

-RoB-

[Wolfgang Wan]

Hi Mike:

Ric's views are really helpful to consider if it's cost effective to have a erection there.

Just FYI:

Our Longbow (http://www.zytechaerodyne.com) 1KW small wind turbine in this condition will have 160 to 190 KWH monthly output. But we have not yet UL registered so maybe can't get a 30% tax credit. USD 2000 costing for the turbine including controller also have TNT door to door delivery service (not include TAX). Add USD 500 to have a 47 Feet stainless tower kits in this package.

Wolfgang
Zytech Aerodyne (http://www.zytechaerodyne.com)

[Jim Erdman]

A good way to see how reliable and realistic a small wind generator is, is to go to the Wisconsin Focus on Energy website and see what turbines they will pay a rebate for. (This info is on the PDF form for applying for the rebate or cash back reward.) They will only do rebates/cash back rewards for machines that have been shown to work, and are large enough to justify the expense of a tall enough tower to get it up in good winds. An 80' tower is usually considered absolute minimum, and 120' is more commonly used.
I see that currently acceptable turbines are ones made by ARE, Bergey, Endurance, Gaia-Wind, Proven, Southwest Wind Power (including the Skystream), and the Jacobs 31/20 by Wind Turbine Industries. The major problem that I see with Skystream is they are promoted on towers that are too short, and they seem to have had LOTS of problems with inverters and controls.

Jim

[Russ Bailey]

Just stumbled across an article on Cleantechnica about the WEPOWER Falcon 12kW unit.

Never realized anything could possibly be so good! Can't possibly imagine why they won't sell at least a million units per year - maybe even every week.

Just for a chuckle you might be interested http://cleantechnica.com/2010/01/05/how-to-calculate-cost-per-kilowatt-hour-of-a-small-wind-power-install/

[Steven Fahey]

Probably the only way to "clean up" the small wind industry is the process of certification.

http://wind.nrel.gov/cert_stds/Certification/certification/index.html

The philosophy is that all turbines should be subjected to carefully measured wind conditions and installed in standardized situations, then measure the energy they deliver. Other parameters, such as reliability, noise, vibration, controllability are also monitored. Some manufacturers are making this a higher priority than others.

Much like any other machine, there are standards to be met. How many of you check the IIHS before buying a car? How many of you know what an Airworthiness Directive is? There are systems for protecting consumers in all industries, it all happens out of the spotlight. Small wind has been missed for a long time. UL and IEC standards cover electrical safety, but performance and mechanical integrity are not addressed.

Now the NREL (and some others) have been mandated to provide such certification. Some will argue that certification and standardization will sap the innovation in the industry. To a degree, this will be true. However it does prevent mistakes and creates an upper tier that everyone can look to for some assurance of quality.

[Russ Bailey]

About like the SRCC for solar thermal panel testing - that is a good thing.

İ didn't see on the NREL site when they are to have this functional though.

[Rob Beckers]

I'm all for some type of standardized testing to weed out the bogus claims (I had a vertical axis turbine yesterday claiming 1kW @ 28mph; when I did the calculations based on swept area it showed that optimistically they wouldn't get above 200 Watt!!! Since this is a drag-type device it's likely to stay far below even that small amount). There are issues with testing though that as far as I know are unresolved. Few small wind manufacturers are getting rich, to the point where they can afford independent testing. It would be a shame if certification meant that just the few big brands make it to the marketplace. The other issue is that testing doesn't reveal how well a turbine holds up over time. For wind turbines, that live in a very hostile environment, this is important. Right now there are very few brands that reliably continue to work after even as little as 5 years.

What's the solution? I don't know. Probably something along the lines of splitting certification into two parts: Performance being one, endurance being another. I would like to see certification/testing to be subsidized so the small manufacturers can afford it too. There's plenty of money going into RE research, this wouldn't make much of a difference in budgets.

By the way, the proposed certification as brought forward by the SWCC (http://www.smallwindcertification.org/index.html) seems to allow manufacturers to do their own testing if they so choose (check the "manufacturers" section, it mentions the choice for manufacturers to do their own testing). This will mean that many of the less scrupulous 'brands' will no doubt show glorious performance numbers, some even beating Betz, and get certified with that. :eek:

-RoB-