Pelton wheel setup

[Jake Jacobson]

Hi,

I am currently in the process of putting together a micro hydro system for my house which is currently on solar,, in winter i have hardly any electricity at all!

I have roughly 300m of 2" irrigation pipe which was getting about 40PSI of static pressure which equates to an estimated 10-15+m or so of head i believe, i am currently re locating the pipe to try and get more pressure, but i will put it back if this does not work.

Currently the pelton wheel setup is very old and turns a car alternator.. i was only getting about 1amp @12v out of this setup... i have spoken to ecoinnovation.co.nz and with the Data i have given them they say with one of their systems i could get a minimum of 200watts.. but their systems are quite expensive ($1500+) a bit out of my price range at the moment..

The other alternative is a system like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=320316803413

or http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/213199436/200W_Micro_water_turbine_generator_Turbo_Turbine_. html

For a fair bit cheaper.. but i am not sure if this will work better than my current setup..


Any thoughts?

And a few photos of the creek etc


http://home.exetel.com.au/jj/IMG_0178.jpg

http://home.exetel.com.au/jj/IMG_0179.jpg

http://home.exetel.com.au/jj/IMG_0183.jpg

http://home.exetel.com.au/jj/IMG_0184.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_0dCXXBaNCxU/SEJlAOYsKkI/AAAAAAAABvs/oWemlWyUPiw/s800/IMGP0042.JPG


:) JJ

[Rob Beckers]

Hi Jake,

Welcome to Green Power Talk!
You're a lucky guy to have the possibility of hydro; even if it's low power it runs 24/7 and that really adds up in energy.

I'm hoping one of the hydro guys will jump in to help out, but here goes from my very limited hydro experience: Looking at the pictures, there seems to be quite a bit of flow. The Pelton wheel and alternator that you have, what power/flow can they handle? Maybe increasing flow to the Pelton wheel is an option? Or adding another nozzle if the first one is already running full-out? What I mean is, that there may be a bit of extra power left in your existing system without spending money on something new.

-RoB-

[Brian McGowan]

Jake,
If you are currently using an actual car alternator then you are using power to energize the field coil and this is costing you power. You should easily be able to adapt this PMA below to your arrangement and it is not terribly expensive. This might increase your power output.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HighAmp-PMA-Permanent-Magnet-Alternator-Generator-SC18F_W0QQitemZ260378726132QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1218 37QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Brian

[Jake Jacobson]

Thanks, that looks like a good idea,,, i will either give that a try or purchase a whole new setup like this http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=150336059178

What do you think would be better?

Thanks for your help so far

[Brian McGowan]

Jake,
The unit you have listed is a 130V 8A unit. If you tie it directly to batteries you would not be getting the best efficiency. If your batteries are 12V and the max current the generator can provide is 8A then your power at best would be 12x8 or about 96 watts.
This will vary slightly with the state of charge of the batteries but not much. Without a converter of some kind you could not do better. For Solar there are MPPT controllers but even then the highest input voltage I know of for non grid tied controller is 100V. Even so a controller would be a large additional expense.
My personal opinion is to get the PM alternator I suggest and just bolt it in and be on your way. It should be a very easy swap out, nearly or actually a bolt in replacement, and probably the least expensive and most efficient arrangement. Depending on your RPM you could get a significant increase in power on the order of 2-400W. Currently you are getting 12W. I have one of these units and could make some measurements for you if you need. do you know what RPM you currently get?
There is my opinion.
Brian

[Jake Jacobson]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply,,

Does it not mean 8amp at 130v which would be 1040 watt or 86amp @12v? I'm not so good with this part just yet so i am probably wrong..

I am not sure what RPM i am currently getting but it is very low,, if i short the load on my current alternator setup it starts to spin extremely fast,, but as soon as the load is put on it starts to spin very very slowly.

Would the PMA device work ok to run straight into 12v batteries to charge them? i would simply turn off the water pressure once they are full or run a load to prevent overcharging.

Thanks so much for your help so far,, looks like i may get away with this cheaper than i thought!!

Currently i am getting about 40PSI of static pressure with about 300m of 2" pipe,, if that helps at all.

[Brian McGowan]

From a pure power calculation point of view your math is correct. The problem is that the wire used to make the generator will only carry 8 amps so no matter what you hook it up to you can only draw 8 amps before it starts to smoke and catch on fire. MPPT controllers for solar applications will take high voltage at low current and convert it to low voltage at high current. This allows for smaller wire from the panels to the controller and so less loss than high current through thick wire.

I have one of these PMAs on my windturbine. I hooked it to another big diode at the batteries to make sure there is no power on the wires outside from the turbine in the yard unless the turbine is spinning so there is no chance of a short in the wires being a problem outside. That is just a safety thing on my part but is not required. The PMA can be hooked directly to the battery. It would be good to know the actual RPM both loaded and unloaded to help determine which PMA would be best. Sometimes in a low RPM situation it is better to use a 24V PMA so you get above the battery voltage and start charging sooner.

I can tell you I made a little home made generator using a lawn mower engine and a standard car alternator and I learned by taking measurements that the field coil uses between 3 and 3.5 amps so if you are currently only getting 1 amp out of the alternator you are actually generating 4-4.5 amps and 3-3.5 of those amps are energizing the field coil leaving you with the remaining 1 amp you actually get to use. You should notice a good improvement with a PMA since you don't have to energize the field coil. I bought the PMA and the windturbine through Ebay but the items come from this website so you can look here for more info.
http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.html


Turning off the water if you are home when it needs to be done will work. I bought this very basic dump load controller and then got a 12V car defroster that plugs into a cigarette lighter socket for a dump load. It draws 12 amps.

Item number: 320360774624

http://cgi.ebay.com/WIND-AND-SOLAR-CHARGE-CONTROLLER-Diversion-Regulator_W0QQitemZ320360774624QQihZ011QQcategoryZ 41980QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It works fine and can be used with bigger relays for more current. There are all kinds of things to use as dump loads. At the above website I mentioned they have 12V hot water heater coils so you can dump power to your water heater.

That's all I have for now.
Brian

[Jake Jacobson]

Hi,

Thats for all your help, i might give the PMA a try.

Also found this one.. would the Ebay one be better or the same as this one? http://www.windbluepower.com/Wind_Blue_Motor_Hydro_Permanent_Magnet_Alternator_ p/dc-500.htm

[Brian McGowan]

I have seen these on Ebay also and they are "comparable". I can't say better or worse since I only have units from Hydrogen Appliances (HA). I think I like the magnet arrangement better on the HA units but the Windblue (WB) units you can get some models in a 3 phase AC connection and have the rectifier next to the batteries instead of in the alternator. This means you can use smaller wire and go longer distances with less loss but since your wire is already run this really doesn't matter for you. This would have been handy for my windturbine but I ended up with the other one because I put in a bid and no one beat me. It works fine. If cost is an issue and you are handy at all you can just get the permanent magnet core and put it in the alternator you already have. It looked like a standard GM alternator to me from what I could see in the picture. A couple of pictures of the wiring on the alternator might help me tell better. Both WB and HA sell these.
http://www.windbluepower.com/product_p/pma-rot.htm
http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/pmaparts.html

Are you sure the alternator you have is not already a PMA? Even if it is, as old as it looks, a new core might be much more powerful.
So I guess at this point what it comes down to is either of these units would probably be an improvement over what you have now and it is a matter of what you can get for the best price. I just checked ebay and the HA unit is 259.99 for BIN and the WB unit is $249.00 for BIN. There are no WB units listed for auction and there are several HA units so you could probably get a break there if you bid. That's what I did.
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=permanent+magnet+alternator&_sacat=See-All-Categories

Well that's all I know for now. Good luck and keep me posted.
Brian

[Jake Jacobson]

Hi well i am ready to purchase the Permenant magnet alternator,, but im not sure how to fit it into my existing setup..

The long piece that spins is much much longer on my alternator.. that drives the pelton wheel..

See photos


This is the PMA from ebay

http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/12si_draft.jpg



This is the alternator from my existing setup, the pelton wheel is metal and sits at the end of the alternator point just before the thread...


http://home.exetel.com.au/jj/alternator.jpg


http://home.exetel.com.au/jj/alternator1.jpg

[Brian McGowan]

My guess is the long shaft on your alternator (which I notice is an actual car alternator thus needing the field energized which that jumper does for you) is probably just threaded on to the alternator shaft. I didn't see a flat spot on the shaft to put a wrench on so see if you can somehow hold the fan and put a pipe wrench on the shaft and thread it off of there. If so you can probably just thread it on the new alternator. Pay attention to not damage or rough up any shaft surface that may provide a seal. It is possible there is no seal and this may not be an issue at all.
Very cool. Keep us posted.
Brian

[Jake Jacobson]

Thanks, you were right.

A pair of multigrips did the trick!

Now to purchase the PMA and hope for the best :D

[Brian McGowan]

Excellent. Looks like all you need now is bolt holes to line up and shaft thread to be the same and you will be good. I am very interested to see how you make out. Wouldn't it be great if it was an actual bonafide drop in replacement? This never happens in my world.
Brian

[Jake Jacobson]

. Wouldn't it be great if it was an actual bonafide drop in replacement? This never happens in my world.
Brian

Well the new PMA arrived, and with a few hours of fiddling around, had to file a few things down a little to make it fit! but it pretty much dropped straight in!!

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/3497/newhydro.jpg


Getting 4amps @ 12v!! What a huge difference over the old setup, its amazing how much more efficient this alternator is, it is noticeably harder to turn by hand, i think if i had another 100m of pipe (more head) i could make 8-10 amps.

But for now 4amp is plenty and i am super happy, thats what i was aiming for! :)

[Brian McGowan]

Jake,
Wow! Congratulations I am absolutely thrilled for you. I am really happy this worked as I thought it should. Things never work out this well for me. It looks great. If you could get enough head it would give you 60 amps no problem. I'm glad the increase is substantial. That is about 1.1kWh/day output. The difference in power you are seeing is the fact that you are not using power to energize the field coil any more which typically takes 3 amps. Enjoy the new power and keep us posted.
Brian

[Jeff Birkle]

Jake, If your interested.
I am currently working on an open loop DIY MPPT controller for my water turbine.
There is 250' of wire between turbine and battery bank and this controller should gain me about 20% more power.
If you like I can keep you informed.
Jeff
:)

[Jake Jacobson]

Hey, i am most definatly interested!

What exactly is it though? :)

[Brian McGowan]

MPPT is Maximum Power Point Tracking. It is a feature in certain mewer solar charge controllers.
It was originally designed for solar panels I think. When your panels are tied directly to your batteries they can only operate at the battery voltage so that limits the power they can produce. MPPT takes the maximum voltage and current your panel can produce and changes it into your battery voltage at the maximum current that can be delivered.
An example in math:
I use Unisolar US-64 panels. I think they can do 3.8 amps and 16.8 volts. Power is volts times amps so 16.8 volts times 3.8 Amps is 64 watts. If for example battery voltage is 12.7 volts and the maximum current the panel can do is 3.8 amps that is 48.26 watts. Somewhat less than the panels rated power. But if you can keep the voltage and current the panel works at and convert it to battery voltage at the highest current then you get more amps actually into your battery. So 64 watts divided by battery voltage of 12.7 and you get 5 amps. Somewhat more than the 3.8 that the panel is rated at. Of course there is no perfect device so there are some losses but even so you could boost your output as much as 20%.
It gets more interesting when you have more than one panel. I have 3. In parallel the 3 panels would produce 11.4 amps. With slightly more than 100 feet of 12AWG cable from panels to batteries there would be some losses. With the MPPT controller you could put those 3 panels in series and you would have 16.8 times 3 or 50.4 volts at only 3.8 amps and the controller would convert the 191 watts into 12.7 volts at 15 amps and if you put the controller right next to the batteries you only need big wire for a very short distance. You could almost run from the panels to the controller with 18AWG lamp cord. Not that you should.
This has worked well for solar panels but development of this for wind turbines and hydro is still being worked on. I have heard of a couple for wind turbines but I don’t know how well they work. Others please chime in here. The bottom line is more amps into your battery. If I had known about good MPPT controller for hydro available when we were working on this I would have told you to get a 48 volt alternator and one of those controllers or that other high voltage alternator you were looking at. Even so, I have one of the alternators you have and I know it will get up there in voltage so if Jeff gets his device going I’m pretty sure it will gain you the 20% he’s talking about.
By the way.... You did mention that you have solar right? What are you running right now for that? Is it worth it to consider boosting that 20% also?

So Jeff, do you think your controller will work on a wind turbine with essentially that same alternator?

Brian
P.S. Did I get all that right?

[Jake Jacobson]

Hi,

That makes sense! sounds really interesting keen to hear how it goes,

Yes i also run solar, there are 4 x 60watt panels (very very old though so not putting out as much as they would new) and an 80watt new suntech panel, currently it puts out about 14amps at full sun.

I also have another 80watt panel i alternate between having on the roof, and taking camping with me for the dual battery setup in my van :)

[Rob Beckers]

A bit off-topic, but maybe of interest:

I've been using MPPT with wind turbines for several years now (these are almost all grid-tie though). The idea is to load up the turbine in such a way that at each wind speed the blades are running at their optimal lift-to-drag ratio (usually represented by the TSR of the turbine). Hooking up an alternator directly to a battery (via a rectifier) means that the voltage can never exceed the battery voltage, and this holds the blades back, resulting in running the turbine far from optimal for most of its RPM range. An MPPT controller allows the blades to run at the right RPM for each wind speed and converts the resulting variable voltage to battery or grid voltage. I've not seen a formal analysis of the energy gains, but would expect this to be at least 20 - 25%.

-RoB-

[Jeff Birkle]

Hello.
In terms of MPPT. A solar unit would work but is has to be able to handle the higher input voltage, and the alternator has to be able to put a higher voltage out.
In my case I will run the turbine at 60 volts and the MPPT will change that to 12volts at 7 amps.
This is how it works.
Power goes through the circuit and charges the input Capacitor and the Inductor with higher energy voltage, then the duty cycle IC opens the circuit and the DC Negative allows the Inductor to empty it's energy at a higher amperage at battery voltage into the battery. While the circuit is open there is no load on the turbine and voltage spikes. Then the duty cycle of the IC closes capturing the higher voltage energy in the capacitor and inductor again, the cycle continues.

The Inductor is a storage device for energy by creating a magnetic field just like a transformer (windings around a ferrite core) then the field collapses and the energy is induced back into the conductor into the battery. The relationship between the duty cycle and the difference in voltage is a direct correlation.
For example a duty cycle of 50% means the output voltage is half of the input voltage, and the corresponding output amperage would be double of the input (if not for efficiency losses).

There have been some results of a wind turbines that normally have 1100 watts max output can be increased to 2500 watts at full wind speed. The reason for 1100 watts max versus 2500 watts, is that the voltage is clamped.
Example
14 volts @ 78.57 amps input without MPPT

=14 volts @ 78.57 amps output =1100 watts.
31.82 volts @ 78.57 amps input with MPPT

=14 volts @ 178.57 amps output = 2500 watts
All these tests have been done with Axial type alternators with lots of FLUX, so I'm not sure how they will perform with any other alternator types that have less flux. It would be interesting to test, and will do so in the future.

This type of MPPT is the the most difficult to design.



Hope this sheds some light.



Jeff

[Jake Jacobson]

Hey,

It's been a while but i thought i would post an update, a while back i increased the jet size to around 12mm, now getting 7amps @ 12v, not too shabby! but i am still striving for more :) considering purchasing another 100m of pipe to try and increase pressure..

[Rob Beckers]

Hi Jake,

Good to hear back from you! Guess the big drought didn't strike your area of Australia. So you're pumping up the batteries with 80 - 100 Watt continuously. That adds up over 24 hours; 2 - 2.4 kWh each day. I bet that makes it a lot easier to get through the winter when the sun is missing.

Looking at the pictures, it seems you have quite a creek running there. Did you calculate how much you can get out of there in hydro based on flow and head? More looks possible.

-RoB-

[Jake Jacobson]

No drought here! been flooding a bit this year, yep about 80 watt or so continuously, which is fantastic, our batteries are very old and tired, they don't hold a full charge so without the hydro we would be running out of power daily and relying on the generator, which is why i would like to increase the output,

A while ago i was emailing the owner of ecoinnovation.co.nz who was very helpful, he said one of the units they make at my site could generate 350watts, their new one is the powerspout http://www.powerspout.com/ but i can't afford $1500 on that right now!

Not 100% sure of the head i am getting, but its not a lot, i now have a GPS so i will try and get a somewhat accurate reading soon, and flow is no problem there is plenty.. Currently with the jet at 12mm it's moving a fair bit of water, with the unit running the pressure reads 20psi, it was 40psi before i changed the jet size.

Considering purchasing another 100m of 2" pipe, but will measure how much more head that would provide first, as my part of the creek is not so steep and has flat sections.. my neighbour is lucky, he is much further up the creek and from his place it's near vertical! he gets a massive amount of pressure and has burnt out all the alternators he has used.. i am recommending him a Permenant Magnet alternator as a hopefully more permenant solution, he has been getting his truck alternator rebuilt every 6 months!

Another option i was considering making a new pelton wheel with a smart drive as the generator, same as the powerspout uses http://www.yourgreendream.com/diy_fisher_paykel.php
But it's a lot of messing around.

Looks like we will be here for a long while yet, so would be great to get a bit more out of the system, i know it has the potential :)

Thanks for the assistance!

Jacob