Solar is now affordable

[Joshua Dekelaita]

Hello everyone , thanks for doing what you guys do to make this a better world. Let me introduce myself. My name is Joshua Dekelaita and I'm an Independent Ecopreneur for a company called CitizenRe. This program is the first to give you the chance to adopt green energy in your home without having to make a huge investment. Our program takes care of all the usual headaches and does it with the most attractive terms in the industry. Also our technology takes the idea of solar power to a new and simpler level with our revolutionary technology providing superior system-wide efficiency and control, and makes your overall electric service more responsive, more reliable, and more renewable! We are also your connection to the world of green energy. Our education section provides great information about solar power and other renewable energy, as well as the latest information on global warming and what clean-energy steps you can take now. Check out the website and see what you think. http://www.jointhesolution.com/therisingsun

[Ralph Day]

An interesting site. Slick, professional, answered a lot of questions but also left a few.

You must be net metered.? It looks like you don't have to (have to) save and conserve to be considered, but it would help.

The main questions left in my mind are: How are Citezenre making their nut? No-one is going to put 40K worth of hardware on my home for free. Monthly rental? it would have to be substantial to make it pay. Who benefits from any excess energy produced?

THe biggest question i see is there won't be any installs until next year, assuming their "production facility" is up and running...there could be a lot of "security deposits" collected from well meaning citizens by then and poof? Hopfully not, but Green is becoming (albeit slowly) what people want to be able to work towards, and CitizenRe looks like it's trolling to me. Maybe i'm wrong, but from the land of the free-to-fleece-people i have my suspicions.

ralph

[Rob Beckers]

There's at least one other company,called SunEdison (http://www.sunedison.com/), that has a similar business model (from what I understand of the CitizenRE model). SunEdison made the news by installing PV on a number of WholeFoods stores (http://www.emagazine.com/view/?3375&printview). The idea is recoup the cost of installation (essentially free for the customer) by charging a fixed rate for electricity on a long-term contract. This may or may not work, we'll have to wait and see. The problem for companies like CitizenRE and SunEdison would seem to be cash-flow, because of the very large initial expense of signing up a new customer, that's only recouped many years later. From a business perspective this requires lots of cash and deferred profits, something most companies can't afford. CitizenRE offsets part of this by charging a deposit, so maybe their model will give them a better chance of survival in the long term.

-RoB-

P.S. Joshua, please thread lightly with the marketing hyperbole. One objective is to keep this forum largely free of commercial content. Your business provides a new and potentially interesting angle on the problem of getting PV to become mainstream, something that others may want to discuss as a concept, so I've let your post stand. If this thread degenerates into an endless add it will be closed though.

[Joshua Dekelaita]

One thing with Citizenre is there"re not collecting any deposits until the manufacturing plant is up and operational and until they've sent a site designer out to your house to design a system. Another thing is there not giving you the solar panels for free, there charging you a monthly bill based how much power your panels produce times the rate at which your locked into. You have the option to sign the contract for 1 5 25 years. Imagine if you got your rate locked in 25 years ago how much money you would have saved already. All the excess energy thats produced by the panels is pushed back into the grid, distributed elsewhere, and you get that power credited to your account which you use on cloudy days or at nighttime.

P.S Rob
Thanks for letting me keep this on here. This company could benefit a lot of people and make this a better world.

[Renic Gunderson]

Has CitizenRE done any installaltions?

I saw a person with a citizenRE booth at a home show I did (in Antioch, CA), but I'm curious: how are they paying their employees if they aren't making sales yet, and who will be doing the installations?

That, and how would it compare to people financing their solar (when compared as ownership for 25 and 40 years) - I am fairly certain ownership will have a higher payout.

[Renic Gunderson]

Has CitizenRE done any installaltions?

I saw a person with a citizenRE booth at a home show I did (in Antioch, CA), but I'm curious: how are they paying their employees if they aren't making sales yet, and who will be doing the installations?

That, and how would it compare to people financing their solar (when compared as ownership for 25 and 40 years) - I am fairly certain ownership will have a higher payout.

I got my response in a private message :(

[Tax Eddie]

As affordable as it may be.. to generate enough power.. you would need to plaster your roof with panels. Not the most efficient way to harness the power of the sun, but I suppose the only way.

[Renic Gunderson]

As affordable as it may be.. to generate enough power.. you would need to plaster your roof with panels. Not the most efficient way to harness the power of the sun, but I suppose the only way.

Not everyone needs to cover their entire roof. It really has a lot to do with annual usage (and daily use patterns when time of use metering is available).

Of course, If you need to plaster your entire roof, you are more likely to see a big incentive in PV.

[Alex Bennett]

Can you elaborate more as to the cost of this product?

I hear contract lengths, maybe deposit, maybe no deposit, and locked power rates. Let's be done with fine print, many people would choose to get their power from solar even if it costed more than grid power. I would. Overall including all incurred expenses to the customer, is your product always cheaper than sticking with the grid? Sorry to be so direct, but you are pitching a product and I think its fair to ask. I have no issue with anyone making cash off of solar. No PMs please.

[Joshua Dekelaita]

Hello Alex. First I want to thank you for taking interest in Solar Power. This is the way we need to go in this country.

1. I hear contract lengths?
There's 1 year, 5 years, and 25 year contracts. With these contracts you will be locked into a flat rental rate for the life of your contract.

2. maybe deposit, maybe no deposit?
There's a $500-$1000 security deposit that is giving back to you at the end of your contract with interest. If you drop out of your contract before its up all you lose is your security deposit.

3. locked power rates?
With us you will have a flat rental rate that would be locked in for the life of your contract.

4. is your product always cheaper than sticking with the grid?
Since we base our rates off of what the power companies were charging in 2005 and most power companies if not all of them have raised their rates since than, your bill with us would be equal and in most cases less than what your paying to the grid now. If the power grid ever became cheaper you can drop out of your contract anytime and lose your security deposit.

Thank you for your questions and interest. Have a wonderful day.:)

If you have any questions Please contact me anytime day or night at 602 418 2823

Joshua Dekelaita
www.maketheswitchtosolar.com

[Stellar Gellar]

it's good that a lot of people are really becoming green.:bigsmile:

[Stellar Gellar]

cool site. This will lessen the global warming that we are experiencing right now.:cry:

[Steve Birmingham]

Great website Joshua. It's well organized, easy to use, and very informative. Best of luck with everything!

[Nicole Helmadollar]

What about DIY solar? I know everybody thinks the only option is the huge roof panels...but what about making those panels for yourself out of recycled materials?

[Joe Blake]

I don't think it would be possible to "make" efficient solar panels (ie photovoltaic cells). My understanding is that it takes a fair degree of sophistication. It's possible to make a solar heater for water out of recycled materials, and perhaps even a frame to hold photovoltaic panels.

Which are you interested in making?

Joe

[Rob Beckers]

Lots of people buy the PV cells (E-Bay etc.) and then make the panels themselves (frame, glass, soldering cells together etc.). While you can make working panels this way, it won't be all that much cheaper than buying the cheaper brands of ready-made modules, and I've yet to hear of home-made modules that survived more than a year or so without water problems (or maybe the people that make their own modules that work for many years just never post about them).

-RoB-

[Alvin solar]

Hi All,
I do agree that solar power is available at reasonable price.. solar power homes are increasingly booming all over in sydney:).. I've been searching for renewable energy secrets and about solar power for a while.. At this juncture i've found one pretty site which clearly outlined the use of solar power and eco home assessments.

[Colin McGonagill]

If we are talking about cost, have you guys ever thought about low grade geothermal via solar collectors? The heat capture efficiency is much better than PV cells. That is what I am working on. Using multiple thermal reservoirs I can run my system, day or night, year round, and make much more power per dollar than PV cells. The initial cost is much higher than say a 200W panel, but you can scale the system from 2kW to 20KW really fast.

Colin

[Rob Beckers]

How do you turn that heat into electricity Colin?

-RoB-

[Colin McGonagill]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_Rankine_Cycle

I have my own prototype. I don't know how much I am allowed to show based on non disclosure type stuff. However, I am a real big proponent of the open community and DIY. I just don't want people stealing some of my stuff because it is difficult to patent because the rankine cycle is 100 years old. I did research here: https://engineering.purdue.edu/Herrick/index.html when I graduated in May for a bit.

I will post my research poster sometime soon with more info because I think I like this forum ;). I am an ME and need help with the electronic side designing the cost out and such. My last prototype at the lab was pretty baller, here is a pic:
http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/1153/img1132ro.jpg

It is much larger then the production prototype I am now building. The motors are way oversized and there is alot of space tied up in DAQ.

Any one can do it and I am willing to help people out; but like I said I don't know legally what I am allowed to do because it isnt just me doing this. But if any one wants to try I will be more than glad to assist.

[Colin McGonagill]

One thing I will say. PV panels will never go away. They are simple and they work. Probably the two most important parts of any solution to a problem. The fact their are no moving parts makes me rethink my whole strategy. However, for the same cost to one panel, I can capture much more energy using this, because it is thermal and not light based.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/SunHeater-4-x-20-80-sq.-ft.-Solar-Heater-for-AG-Pools/10749553?sourceid=1500000000000003260420&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=10749553

Running some basic calculations here:http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/Collector/ColEfic.htm#efic you can get about 170 BTU/sqft-hr which equates to 49.8 watts per square foot. At 80 sqrft I get 3.9 KW. However an ORC system isn't efficient so at a low rate of 5% efficiency you get only 195 Watts per panel. However like I mentioned I can add a panels (80 sqrft ) for pretty cheap. Also, as I decrease the flow rate to the water loop (panel) the efficiency of the system rises. So an over sized panel system will net huge gains. Also, the faster I run the pump through the panel the more efficient it becomes although hurting ORC system efficiency.

One thing to note is you dont have to use solar. You can use ground, air, any thermal reservoir, so at night you can reject using black body through the panel and take in heat via ground air whatever. Winter time is the same deal. The idea is to have several thermal reservoirs to get the largest temperature drop and have an ORC system that has a large enough flow rate to handle the capacity. If you do, you can make power all the time, not just during the day. also, if some one didnt want panels on their roof or wanted a hidden system they could do an air, ground loop system.

Also, you can use the reservoirs for heating and cooling your house, increasing the COP of your AC and heatpump, reducing the amount you need to generate.

The real money maker is the fact the system runs 24/7. It will produce more KW/h than a PV system.

One question I have is how are panels rated, I see 235W, etc. Is that peak output, average output or some other formula thanks.

Colin

[Rob Beckers]

One question I have is how are panels rated, I see 235W, etc. Is that peak output, average output or some other formula thanks.

They are rated at 25 degrees centigrade (for most) and 1000 W/m^2 with a spectrum similar to the sun's. That radiation is close to what the mid-latitudes see during a summer day at noon, but most panels get far warmer than 25C and output drops due to that.

3.9kW for 80 sq. ft. is very good though! For solar we need about 80 sq. ft. to place 1kW of PV modules. Your number is just thermal efficiency, or does this include conversion to electrical energy?

-RoB-

[Colin McGonagill]

3.9kw is just thermal. The subsequent calculations show that the ORC cycle only is 5% efficient so you only get 195W per panel. Which size wise is much worse then PV. However, as I mentioned it is much cheaper to buy 80sqft of that type of panel then PV.

My system doesnt just use solar. You can generate power using any thermal reservoir, so once the sun goes down you can switch to air and ground and continue to make power, just not as efficient. The idea is to have several capture methods to offset the inconsistencies of weather, etc. with a centralized generator based on the same tech of your HVAC system.

[Johny Antonio]

Hello Everyone
I think theres no way out except solar energy in the upcoming energy crisis all over the world. Specially in the third world countries it will be the only savior....

[Colin McGonagill]

Well if you think about it everything is solar powered. If you take a large model the earth is powered by the sun then it rejects to space via radiation. So the total amount of energy on the earth at any given point is

d(E_stored_on_earth)/d(time) =(Q_irradiation_sun - Q_radiation_space)

so you are correct.

P.S.

You can disprove/prove global warming in 2 seconds with that model. I use it to disprove.

FYI the Solar Advisor Model by the NREL is the greatest financial calculator ever. What are you guys getting for your payback periods on your equipment?