Large scale wind projects

[Robert Harder]

I live in an area that has recently drawn the attention of several electrical producing companies who wish to place 50 megawatt wind turbines in several locations. I have been absolutely amazed at the local opposition and would like honest opinions of pros and cons from all of you to help me prepare responses to these critics, thank you, Robert

[Ethan Brush]

The same thing has just happened in my area, where a company has been trying to get approval to install 26 turbines. There was/is an enormous amount of opposition to this project and the town as enacted a wind ordinance which has pretty much killed the project. I believe that people are nervous and sceptical of new things, which is illustrated by the myriad of far fetched arguments people make against them: They produce large rotating magnetic fields that travel for miles, they throw ice which can destroy houses and cars, they USE electricity to make them spin when there is no wind, they will cause erosion/flooding/water table problems in the town five miles away, the company is just building it for the tax breaks and will get rich and abandon the turbines after a few years, and the list goes on. Of course the common complaint is the visual impact, but I find it funny how no one minds the utility poles and wires strung beside every road and all over our towns and cities. To me wind turbines are beautiful and signify an intelligent society that has future generations and sustainability in mind. In Denmark, wind farms are almost sacred areas that are usually beautifully manicured and set up as parks. It is all very frustrating to me.

[Phil Schneider]

I agree with Ethan on his aesthetics comments. When someone brings up aesthetics as a con of a wind farm, show them a picture of a refinery or a coal plant (see attached). I don't know of any "60-minutes" stories or "Dateline NBC" stories about birth defects or mercury poisining in people who live around wind farms, but fossil fuel facilities? Another argument against tends to be wildlife impacts. I don't claim to have seen any documented facts, but I've read that the average house cat kills 10 times as many birds in a year as a wind turbine. I can imagine that a flock of birds flying through a wind farm could be damaging to a population... Oops, ranting... Good luck!

P.

[Lion Kuntz]

I live in an area that has recently drawn the attention of several electrical producing companies who wish to place 50 megawatt wind turbines in several locations. I have been absolutely amazed at the local opposition and would like honest opinions of pros and cons from all of you to help me prepare responses to these critics, thank you, Robert

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This is one reason for dissatisfaction.

[Lion Kuntz]

Of course the common complaint is the visual impact, but I find it funny how no one minds the utility poles and wires strung beside every road and all over our towns and cities.

Utility poles have left millions of people in America without power, for up to four weeks in the worst cases, during the recent ice storms and blizzards. Everybody should object to utility poles for power security reasons. However, a set of power poles strung to homes is nothing like high tension wire towers and rights-of-way with the constant poison sprayings. 50 megawatts the man said, not 27kva running on neighborhood lines.

[Lion Kuntz]

I don't claim to have seen any documented facts, but I've read that the average house cat kills 10 times as many birds in a year as a wind turbine. I can imagine that a flock of birds flying through a wind farm could be damaging to a population... Oops, ranting... Good luck!

P.

It's not quite as important HOW MANY BIRDS as WHAT KINDS OF BIRDS get killed by wind-props. The most likely kills, out of proportion in numbers are the raptors, so fixed, rapt, on their prey that they don't pay attention to the props. The death of one eagle is worth the death of a million starlings. The eagle and hawk carcasses show up on the ground greatly out of proportion to their population. In fact, common birds use windmills as safe areas more protected from their predators. There aren't a lot of high quality studies but the few there are agree that the birds of prey get it in the neck from wind generators.

So what do you think of my wind tower design, which takes aesthetics into account and improves the power efficiency. It's called Eagle's Roost to emphasize the bird-safe features: no moving parts outside at all.


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http://h2-pv.us/wind/Introduction_01.html
http://h2-pv.us/wind/Big_01.html
http://h2-pv.us/wind/strip_mining/strip_mining.html
http://h2-pv.us/wind/towers_prior_art/towers_prior_art.html

Nobody has commented at all on it.

[Kareem Shihab]

Last year I heard a Republican on Fox news say the reason he opposed wind farms was because the eye sore issue, and because of the negative impact to birds and bats they had. You know something is fishy when Republicans embrace wildlife conservation. Something doesn’t add up when they are arguing on the basis of landscape aesthetics. Many of them are very susceptible to lobbying interests and wouldn’t think twice about clear cutting old growth forests and building as many coal plants in their place if they could make a quick buck, or get re-elected off supporting it.
If large groups of people start becoming sustainably minded and conservation minded then oil companies risk loosing BILLIONS in profits. The companies have a direct interest in keeping consumption high, so lobbying is vital.
I think alot of people hear these Republican talking points and are quick to embrace them because they might identify with the party on some other issue.
Honestly I think the wind farm opposers that you are dealing with are being misled. I may be wrong but find out who is organizing them and do a bit of research in why they are so interested in opposition. Does he actually have a track record of conservation, or of republican party activism. I think you will find your answer.
Wind farms to me, like the other people have mentioned on this thread represent true progress and a large step in the right direction to the largest group of problems human society will face in the next generation...energy, climate change, environmental destruction, ect..
sorry for the rant .-k

[Matt Tritt]

Hi Kareem,

That's the weird thing about Republicans; many are motivated exactly as you say, by greed. But others might simply be part of that party because of old ties and loyalty to some forgotten cause, and might actually be conservationists at heart. I know a lot of Republican ranchers out here in Cowlandia, and many of them actually are pretty much Green, but sometimes for interesting reasons.

I know three big ranchers who solar pumps to keep ponds full, which is great. They keep the ponds full to attract wildlife - so they and their buddies can shoot them, which is not so great. A mixed bag. Solar powered game shoot.

Wind turbine opponents come in all shapes and sizes though. Most of them think that turbines slaughter birds by the thousands, but we can blame that point of view on oil interests and good old fashioned ignorance. That and bad turbine placements in Altamont Pass in California and a ridge in West Virginia. Good stuff hardly ever gets mentioned, while bad news spreads like scabies in a commune.

Matt Tritt

[Matt Tritt]

Well, how about this: Most birds are killed by hitting windows here in the states. Your design is essentially a whole lot of windows - all open - but with stuff whizzing aound inside. Kind of like a really big bird trap, but without the kitties waiting. ;-) Instead of breaking their necks on glass, they break them on blades.

[Matt Tritt]

I live in an area that has recently drawn the attention of several electrical producing companies who wish to place 50 megawatt wind turbines in several locations. I have been absolutely amazed at the local opposition and would like honest opinions of pros and cons from all of you to help me prepare responses to these critics, thank you, Robert

Robert, I suspect that you meant to say 50 mW windfarm, not wind turbine. The largest land-based turbines in the US are 3 mW per unit, but the Clipper 2.5 is pretty big as well! (I know the guys that developed this machine since I worked with them in the early 80's at Zond Systems and keep in touch).

There are NIMBYs everywhere, even in Germany and Denmark, where there are so many as to be ubiquitous. :-(

[Lion Kuntz]

Well, how about this: Most birds are killed by hitting windows here in the states. Your design is essentially a whole lot of windows - all open - but with stuff whizzing aound inside. Kind of like a really big bird trap, but without the kitties waiting. ;-) Instead of breaking their necks on glass, they break them on blades.

Many migratory birds hit tall buildings flying in the dark. The birds that hit windows in the daytime are birds that don't understand the concept of transparent glass. These towers could have LED lights to a help avoidance of birds or planes at night, and the windows are not "Open like glass", they are filled with flickering wind catcher sails or cups zipping by. The flickering motion would be highly allergic to skittish birds, and the building would be an opaque solid object to bats at night.

What would it matter anyway if they don't work then they will never get built. Can we put first things first? Do you find any flaws in the reasoning?

I just did a spreadsheet of power numbers. If the math has no errors in it than the spreadsheet is computing that a 120 foot diameter tower, whose height is from 10 to 90 meters above ground level, same as the 1.5 MW prop generators produces 11.5 MW at the same 35 mph wind speeds. Not one inch higher but 10 extra megawatts from smaller width, and no moving parts outside.

The spreadsheets are here:
http://H2-PV.us/1/Eagle_Roost.sxc
http://H2-PV.us/1/Eagle_Roost.xls

They are essentially the same. The ".sxc" version is OpenOffice.org freeware compatible, the ".xls" is monopoly office compatible with Excel for the freedom-impaired.


If it doesn't work it won't get built. If it does work and does get built and makes 11.5 MW the power company will handsomely donate to the local conservancy organization to preserve prime nesting grounds for bird replenishment, I'm sure. Big turbines cost $1 megabuck per megawatt, so getting 11.5 MWs for the price of 1.5 MW buys a lot of bird egg incubators.

In fact, these are designed for lower wind areas where the big blades don't move. The smallest tower lights up 39 homes at 10 mph winds (so says the spreadsheet) where the big props don't move at all. A double high stack going up to the tip of the big prop's sweep, computes at powering 119 homes at 10 mph.

A generator that puts out half the power, but runs twice as many hours per year generates the same annual production as one twice the rated power that only runs 40% of the year when the winds are over 17 mph minimum.

If two radically different designs both make the same annual production and both cost the same, then the choices comes down to more abstract issues of maintenance costs and bird kills, things like that. So far as I know, bird kills have never been the major reason any tower type was ever refused permits, and more likely than not was only used as an excuse talking point by people who don't even have a backyard bird feeder (I have one).

[Ralph Day]

I love the look of the tower, looks a little like Pisa!

The pictures of one(s) situated on farms appear no more obtrusive than the great many now unused silos on retired/non viable dairy farms. I'm unclear as to your description of city units, do you mean they are enclosed in a building?

I've only heard of one bird kill due to a wind turbine and it was a 1kw micro unit that macerated the owner's own pigeon (sorry Ashley). Where is the wholescale slaughter we hear about? Are there any accurate figures from megawatt wind farms in Canada, US, Europe?

I've enjoyed this thread. Wonderful concept. My first impressions anyway.

[Lion Kuntz]

I love the look of the tower, looks a little like Pisa!

The pictures of one(s) situated on farms appear no more obtrusive than the great many now unused silos on retired/non viable dairy farms. I'm unclear as to your description of city units, do you mean they are enclosed in a building?

I've only heard of one bird kill due to a wind turbine and it was a 1kw micro unit that macerated the owner's own pigeon (sorry Ashley). Where is the wholescale slaughter we hear about? Are there any accurate figures from megawatt wind farms in Canada, US, Europe?

I've enjoyed this thread. Wonderful concept. My first impressions anyway.

I am still soliciting comments and/or corrections on the principles I outlined. Serious replies have no been forthcoming so far. If there are undetected errors I have made then they have not been pointed out to me.

Bird kills have not been extensively studied, although I have seen a couple. Bird carcasses disappear fast in nature and often not even a tidy pile of feathers is left to show.

The birds most often victimized by percentage of their rarity in nature are the predators: eagles, hawks and owls, who get so focussed on their prey that they don't notice the blades. Since their numbers are always low, losing just a few of these is worth the same as losing 10,000 starlings.