Solar Hot Water Panels on Kijiji

[Jamie Bourgeois]

This is directed at Mark Parsons post(that I cant seem to find)about buying some used panels.
I saw "Solar Hot Water Panels" on Kijiji and wondered if they where from the same guy and how he likes they.Check out link below.

http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-tools-equipment-SOLAR-HOT-WATER-PANELS-W0QQAdIdZ11878221

[Mark Parsons]

Greetings Jamie,

Thanks for remembering my post about the Norsun product. I got one for free earlier this year and had difficulting tracking down info. They are a well constructed 3' x 8' flat plate collector built in the early 80's. The key issue is the refrigerant load in them and the efficiency using this old refrigerant (or lack thereof).

I reconfigured my unit so that water passes through the former refrigerant lines and it works great. I have it mounted on the roof at the cottage. I still have to get it plumbed to the drainback tank and pump.

Moderate DIY skills can easily refurbish these collectors for a new life of solar hot water creation. I think the $120 each this vendor is asking is a little high unless they are proven to work with the original refrigerant. The vendor would have refrigerant removal costs.

I added some additional insulation behind the absorber as the original thin fiberglass bat likely didn't offer R5. I recoated the absorber plates with new flat black stovepipe paint. The low iron glazing also required a very good cleaning.

Regards,
Mark

[Jamie Bourgeois]

I figured by the time I purchased the copper tubing,glass,absorber plating and lumber to build my collectors I might be pretty close to that $120 panel cost.(the price of copper is nuts right now)
Is there any other things I should be looking at before purchasing?
Do these panels have an exchanger built in to them,you mention refrigerant?

[Mark Parsons]

Hi Jamie,

I believe the gentleman that created these Collectors was (is) Eric Preston. He got NRC research money and wrote this book on the concept in 1984.
http://www.books4prep.com/B0007C2TLY/To_research_the_thermal_diode_collector_and_to_dev elop_low_and_medium_temperature_solar_heating_syst ems_based_on_this_concept.html#

The inlet and outlet pipe is a flow through 1" copper pipe located on one end of the narrow (3') dimension. Note the picture of a standard modern collector below shows inlet at bottom and outlet at top. The Norsun only has the flow through exchanger pipe at top. It is a pipe in pipe custom heat exchanger 1" OD. I don't think you can tell by looking at the unit if the refrigerant is still intact. I'm not sure how efficient this concept was anyway. It seems most of these units where originally sold to heat public swimming pools and many were used for the job.

The extruded aluminum frame, galvanized rear plate, low iron tempered glass glazing, copper absorber plates resistance welded to tubing and return and manifold tubing should all be in good shape. As you say, certainly worth $120 in today's copper market. I cut one of the rear copper tubes that thermosyphoned the refrigerant liquid from the upper heat exchanger to the lower manifold and brought that line out for water exit and then extended the lower manifold tube to the outside of the frame for inlet. This way you can run water where the refrigerant went. Through the main absorber tubes. Pinch off and solder the dead return tubing lines to keep any water from stagnating and freezing.

I'm not sure what kind of refrigerant liquid was used. Certainly not a freon type. It was a pinkish clear liquid at room temperature and pressure and had a strong cinnamon type odour. Perhaps an aldehyde or other aromatic hydrocarbon that was somewhat efficient when new. Be sure to purge this liquid in a well ventilated area.

I added a layer of this Foil/Foam/Foil duct insulation behind the existing fiberglass bat for added R value and radiative reduction. http://www.insulation4less.com/prodex_Ffmf.asp

Let us know how you make out.

Regards,
Mark

[Jamie Bourgeois]

I picked up 2 of the Norsun/Nortec panels yesterday.He has dropped his price to $80 per panel.He is located in Metcalfe and he has about 30 panels left.His place is totally off the grid.I gave him the address to this site and hope to hear from him soon.I will keep you posted as to my progress on these panels.


Thanks
Jamie

[Mark Parsons]

Hi Jamie,

I would be interested in picking up another 1 or 2 of those Nortec units. If you are staying in touch with this gentleman let him know. The Kijiji link has expired. Perhaps a couple of units that obviously need significant refurbishing for an even lower unit cost.

If many others have bought these units then a DIY refurbishing blog would be of benefit to see how everyone has applied them. Wonder if folks are trying to use them with refrigerant intact?

Regards,
Mark

[Paul Bailey]

Hi Mark and Jamie: Can you punch out /remove the refrigerant lines and just re-tube . Since i'm assuming the line maybe smaller than normal. ,you may require a higher head pump or put a couple panels in parallel. :)

[Mark Parsons]

Hi Paul,

The absorber tubing is 3/8" copper with 2.5" wide thin copper plate absorbers resistance welded to the tubing. I believe this size of tubing and absorber plate is fine. There is about 12 absorber tubes running the length of the panel connected to common lower and upper manifolds. A common 3/4" copper tube manifold is on the bottom and the upper manifold is a copper pipe in a pipe heat exchanger.

The main weird part is the two 1/2" copper return tubes running behind the absorber tubes from the upper manifold to the lower to allow the refrigerant to thermosyphon. By cutting and capping these return tubes and opening one end of the lower manifold and one of the return tubes near the upper manifold diagonally, water can be pumped through the absorber nicely.

Putting units in series for a drainback system does create a bit of a problem since the upper manifold doesn't allow for a straight out the side option. Plumbing them in parrallel shouldn't present a problem for draining.

These units are 3' x 8' so 2 should provide a good portion of DHW. More could be used for some space heating. I found the construction robust and the reconfiguration quite easy with some copper pipe plumbing soldering skills.

I am hoping to get my Nortec unit operational during my forthcoming vacation. It is on the cottage roof. Just need to get the drainback plumbing up to it and the heat exchanger on the side of the hot water tank. I will report any difficulties encountered.

Regards,
Mark

[Jamie Bourgeois]

Hey Mark
Your panels are slightly different than mine.The tubing i have is 8 vertical absorber plated 1/2" OD copper and 2 vertical unplated rear 1/2" OD copper.
My lower manifold is 1/2" ID copper pipe.I believe the upper manifold is the same as yours.

I would add a picture but not sure how to shrink them small enough.

also Mark with the 2 panels I have,I have taken and switched the sides of them to give a lower cold in and a upper hot out but on opposite sides.

[Jamie Bourgeois]

I have his phone# and GPS directions to his house if anyone needs them.

Jamie

Not sure if I should post them here or not.

[Mark Parsons]

Hi Jamie,

I am recalling the configuration from around January when I worked on this. My memory is not what it used to be. When I was posting earlier I had wrote 8 absorber tubes but thought twice and changed to 12. The absorber plate must be wider than I recalled - 3.5", 4"??

I was able to solder a standard copper fitting onto the end of the lower manifold but had to use a compression fitting for the upper return tube size. I couldn't find copper sweat caps to work on the return tubes so just pinched them off and soldered the other 3 ends. Pressure testing showed no leaks.

With your configuration you are going to mount side by side and fluid in bottom of the first, out the top diagonal corner of the first, in the top of second and out the bottom diagonal of the second? Is it a drainback or filled system?

If you could send me a private message with the fellow's number and coordinates I would appreciate it.

Regards,
Mark

[Jamie Bourgeois]

Sorry Mark forgot you live in Dresden.
I was at Home Depot and found 1/2" OD tees(at a hefty price of $3.98 each)that will fit the rear tube.I plan to use them near the top as close to the exchanger as I can.I was thinking of using a 1/4" tube with a small valve off the exchanger to vent any trapped air.I am on vacation right now so I cant work on them till I get back in.

Jamie

ps I attached a layout of my panels

[Jamie Bourgeois]

Well I just finished the first of two Norsun panels yesterday.The tube reconfiguration was relatively easy,getting the thin backer panel into the aluminium extrusion proved to be a challenge.The absorber plates were falling off of the tubing so I made the mistake of taking them off.It would have been easier just repair the loose ones.I used the rubberized asphalt undercoating from Canadian Tire to paint the outer casing.I am not sure of its durability and heat resistance,only time will tell.

Right now I have a digital meat thermometer stuck in the case of the panel and it is reading 191.6 F.With a trickle of water flowing through it I have 57F going in and 106.4F coming out.I am testing it out in my backyard so these numbers will change when I get them on the roof.

Jamie

[Gerard Petsche]

Hey, Thought you guys may be interested in a Norsun Solar Hot Water Tank with Built-In Exchanger and Flow Controller. This is a complete 100Gallon Tank with insulation and copper tubing.

Taking bids :)

Located in Hamilton, ON

[Rob Beckers]

Hi Gerard,

Welcome to Green Power Talk!

You may want to try posting in the "For Sale" section. More people are likely to see it there (though you'll have to set a price over there, see the rules, for bids there's always EBay ;)).

-Rob-