Insurance ranges for solar microfit systems

[Brian Spilsbury]

the title says it all.
I'm looking for quotes, starting tomorrow, and wonder what others have got so far.

[Ralph Day]

Hi Brian
The insurance (as a rider on our household policy, not stand alone) is between $350 and 400 per year. That's only the first year, it will probably drop as moresystems come on line3. I can't put my hands on the latest bill, sorry.


The insurance company wanted a copy of the ESA report and a copy of the OPA contract. I finally got that to them yesterday (been online since last June).

Ralph

[Brian Spilsbury]

my quote was for 450 with the same requirements. I had no idea if that was the right price or not.

[Julian Egelstaff]

Our Power (http://www.ourpower.ca) has estimated the annual cost of insurance should be about 0.2% of the total capital cost of the system. But the insurance industry has completely not got it story straight when it comes to this stuff, at least in Ontario.

In our case, there was no increase in our insurance (we're overinsured?). I've heard of other people who's insurance company wouldn't insure their house anymore. It's pretty crazy.

--Julian

[Paul Martin]

Just got ours added for $181 from Scotia. It does not include loss of income. They are doing a review for the solar add-ons since so many are requesting it now. The guy on the phone was considering getting a rooftop system himself.

[Peter Klaassen]

I had an interesting conversation recently about roof top installations. The potential hazard of continued electrical production should your house catch fire may prevent the fire department from doing their job. Can the solar array be shut down with 100% certainty so that firefighters would be safe to put out the fire? If they feel there is an electrical hazard they will not put water on the fire. If they can't put out the fire will the insurance still be valid? I am sure there are switches to shut down the array under normal circumstances. Is it possible this won't work in a fire situation? Does the electrical code consider this in it's standards? These were questions that I couldn't answer. Any others with info about this?
Pete

[Dave Turpin]

I am not an expert, but I expect anything certified by the UL must be safe for firefighting when deranged.

On the side of common sense, however, there is no way you could be shocked by spraying water on a solar panel. Each panel is a couple hundred watts; there is not going to be enough power to arc through a waterstream. The inverters themselves will shut down if an arc occurs. And, don't firefighters kill power to a building before entering it or trying to fight a fire in it?

[Peter Klaassen]

Perhaps the system requirements are different in the U.S. or I am not up to code here.(ESSA did check and approve the set up here though) With three panels in series I have up to 135 V DC coming in from the array with a breaker in the basement and individual breakers on the series at the tracker. The Voltage is enough to cause a problem I would say so if the firefighters knew about the array there is a way to shut them down. I should put a sign on the breaker box I think. What happens for a roof top array. Is the a combiner box outside the house? That would probably be a good spot to disable the panels. The issue then is to educate the fire departments.
Pete

[Ralph Day]

Hi Peter
On my side of the County the local fire chief came and looked around at our (and all the other) off-grid systems (2 years ago, pre microFIT) in the ward/township. He documented where the breakers were, where the batteries were, how to isolate the DC from the AC and such. This info is in a binder kept in the cab of the local fire pumper truck (first response vehicle).

He said that when the dept responds to a fire they generally cut the seal and pull the meter...cuts power to the structure and they have access to 240vac to run lights, extractor fans or whatever. Would probably do the same to my microFIT meter if they had a fire call here, just cut both/everything off.

If you're concerned about how things might be attacked at your place I'd suggest calling the fire dept and suggesting a visit for them to see the setup and how to deal with it. Tell them how Sophiasburgh handles all the off-grid places in their jurisdiction.

Ralph

[Frank Shefman]

Although the original post is older, I thought I would comment as I am just now installing a 6 kw system on my roof, receiving my conditional contract from the OPA. I had attended an interesting workshop on solar PV a few weeks back and we spent some time on arc faults and fire/installation hazards with installations. There isn't a lot on the web about these items. As well, I was so focused on the purchase and equipment, I didn't pay attention to this very important detail. It should be noted that in the States last year they came out with a regulation NEC 2011. Few companies have inverter equipment that meets this regulation. From what I've been told DC Arc Faults are very dangerous and difficult to stop. DC Voltage going through the wires can kill. The modules would still be generating DC electricity even if the meter has been pulled by Fireman in the case of a string inverter. There are solutions however, some better than others. I've gone with Solaredge. Their solution has the Optimizer stopping the power at each module once it receives the command through the wires and it will only allow 1 V to move through the wires when not on. Tigo communication is wireless so you are dependent on sending a command through the air-read the fine print on their literature. SMA says they have inverters that meet the regulation. I'm not sure about the DC/AC converters like Enphase but I would think they would be ok because of how they work. Please do not take my word for it, but you do have to dig for answers, if in the future you don't want to put the 1st responders to risk. As well, not having Arc Fault protection could affect your insurance costs in the future.

[Rob Beckers]

Hi Frank,

So you still have one of the old 80.2 ct/kWh contracts, and are implementing at today's PV prices? That's as good as printing money! You're a lucky man!

I think the arc-fault detection came about from the insurance industry, to mitigate a potential fire risk. It won't do much for the firemen, at least not in the way it's implemented for string inverters. The inverter simply switches off the current in case an arc is detected, for a string that means the voltage is still there, and if there's an arc between the DC wires, or a wire and ground (for a grounded array), it will continue to arc regardless of what the inverter does. What it will catch is a bad connector, causing an arc. By the way, the above is an argument in favour of transformerless inverters (which have ungrounded PV strings), where switching off the DC disconnect will stop an arc between a lead and ground.

Let's not get carried away by this as a 'risk' though; I'm not aware of even a single case where a fire was caused by a DC arc from a PV array. I know of one case where cheap junk Chinese panels caused a roof to burn down; those were really bad quality with polycarb/plastic as their covering instead of glass!

We're sure to see the requirement for arc-fault detection come to Canada too, it just takes a few years before US code requirements get into the CEC. This year's Canadian code already has a very much expanded section for solar PV, instead of the two pages in the last code book.

I know Fronius added arc-fault protection to their inverters recently, I'm sure all the others that haven't done so already will follow soon. As you noted, optimizers can switch of power remotely to the string, but they add their own issues. I talked to the fire people here in Ottawa regarding solar PV and their views on it; The answer was that they don't bother to find out what kind of inverter(s) are present, and they will not stop to look for a remote de-energize option. So unless the homeowner switched things off, it makes no difference to the firemen, they are told to assume the panels are all live and have voltage on them. Their interaction with the roof is that they like to hack holes in it for venting of gasses, and in the majority of cases not the whole roof is covered with panels, so they'll just hack elsewhere. Some jurisdictions in the US (California in particular) have building regulations on the books for solar PV, where there needs to be a certain amount of space around the perimeter and ridge for fireman to be able to walk, that's something we may see here at some point as well.

Congrats with the MicroFIT contract!

-RoB-

[Frank Shefman]

Great info! At the seminar I was at I had heard there were 4 instances of arc fault fires in Ontario to date. In one case, which was discussed but I don't think happened in Ontario the fireman put out the fire after a great deal of difficulty because the panels were still producing electricity, but were called back several hours later because it restarted again because some panel wires were still arcing. In Australia and elsewhere there are "rumors" that the fireman when confronted with a burning house or building that has an array on top of it will "let it burn". Note I say rumours because that's all they are as far as I know,,,but worth investigating in your jurisdiction.
I am excited about getting my installation up and running especially with this amazing summer we are having in Ontario. Although my installation will not be optimum in terms of utilizing 100% of solar potential based on the numbers it works well at .802 cents. I should have it installed and running within 45 days or so.
Getting back to insurance for a moment, I have to move my insurance from one company to another because of the ridiculous charge $700 per year that my present company wants to bill me.