aurora & windy boy

[Jeffrey Martin]

Hi,I`m a new member from southern minnesota.I have a 6k aurora running with a17.5 jacobs and I am trying to use a 7k windy boy with it.Either will work alone but together the aurora will ground fault or the windy boy gives a fault code and makes a loud humming noise. The gfi is disabled on the windy boy. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks Jeffrey

[Rob Beckers]

Hi Jeffrey,

First, welcome to Green Power Talk!
One of my inverter customers is running the exact same setup you're using. So it is possible. On the down side, he had to modify the ground wiring of the Windyboy to make it work (it's the Windyboy that's grounding the DC input, which in turn causes the Aurora inverter to throw a ground fault). I've asked him for more details.

-RoB-

[Jeffrey Martin]

Hi Rob, thanks for the reply thats what I like about this forum there is so much info.I thought that the mix of the two brands might work. One of the windy boy techs didn't think there was a path to ground with the gfi fuses removed so I thought it was worth a try.I will look for your reply,thanks, Jeffrey

[Mike Grzesiek]

Hi,

I'm running a similar configuration. I had some trouble getting them to play nice together (nad am still working to a final solution. One thing that helped, Make sure your windyboy and aurora grounds are segregated. I have seperate ground rods for each 15' apart. This solved some of the startup conflicts, but not all. I'll be home in a few weeks, and have a plan to auto reset the aurora when it groundfaults. If it works I'll post the diagram for you.

Also, I have a number for SMA America, (I'll post here when I get a chance). They have been very helpfull to me. They (I'm Sure) will be interested in the humming your experiencing in the windyboy. I never had that experience.

Perhaps you can scetch your scematic for me, and I'll compare it to mine. I'll do the same for you when I get a chance.

Have you gotten them to work together at all? another issue you will have to deal with is the windyboy keeping the aurora 'alive' when the wind stops. You'll have to disconnect the grid when power drops off the 3phase line to 'kill' the aurora.

It's not much for now, but I'll be posting more for you as I can. Hopefully we can work together and get these things to play real nice together.

Mike

[Jeffrey Martin]

Hi Mike, Thanks for the info.I did talk to a tech at sma and he told me to separate the grounds but I can't try it till those canadiens send us that evil cold nw wind.I would rather use the new isolated power one inverter but it is a smaller wattage and I don't think it is available yet.Hey why does the power one have gfi and the windy boy turns it off for wind applications? Really what good is it because they don't shut down the alterntor power? Thanks Jeffrey

[Mike Grzesiek]

Actully my Aurora (not sure about your's) does have a way to bypass the reso testing, however I can't make it work as I would expect. When I turn the reso test off the aurora errors with aground fault every few seconds. I haven't been able to get an answer to why.

Sence I changed my groundings I still get reso errors on the aurora, but only about 1 out of 7 starts. Here's my error time lines...

Wind Starts
Aurora and windyboy come to life
Aurora comes online and produces power
when the wind gets high enough windyboy comes online
Auirora fails with RESO error.

I have the ability to remotly monitor both my windyboy and Aurora, so I send the Aurora it's wind table, which resets the aurora, and it ALWAYS restarts.

When I get home I'm going to wire a disconnect to the Aurora, It has an error output that sends a 110VAC signal, that I will use to fire the disconnect (with a timer), this should get the aurora to 'fall asleep', then the timer will reconnect the power to the aurora, and If I'm right it it should come to life.

I'll let you know if it works.

Where do you live... I'm In Northern MI, and have had a good fall so far.

[Cor van Houtum]

When you are able to uncheck the riso tab with the software you must have the second level password.
this password is in every unit different and related to the serial number of the unit.

you should ask power-one or your dealer to get this password

but if you have it and you are able to disable the riso you must also know
that if you do and then stop changing anything else then riso it will work.
but if you change in a next session the power table insite the aurora it wil reset after you do this.
the result of this reset is also that the riso is put ON again.

cheers

Cor

[Mike Grzesiek]

Thanks for tips on the reso test disable.

I have the password you mention for the aurora installer, but not the password for the unit (entered thru the inverter itself).

I have attempted to disable reso thru the aurora installer. When I disable it, the aurora instantly reports a reso error, and then attempts to reset 1 second later, and then gives the reso error again. This cycle continues indefinatly. Do I need to shut the aurora down after setting reso off?


Thanks again.

[Cor van Houtum]

do you have the password starting with 9592 and then some more digits ?
to go into the advanced mode

And is it not possible that you have a riso error
and the inverter is absolute right about it. ?

the windy boy is a inverter with transformer
the aurora is transformerless

is the eartfault of the house also tripping :
or is just the display on the aurora giveing the riso fault info ?

cor

[Mike Grzesiek]

My password starts with 9593, but I do go into advanced mode.

I suppose it is possible that there is a reso, and the aurora is right, but the only indication I have anywhere of a ground fault is on the aurora display and software. Also, when the aurora is set to reso enabled, I very rarely get reso errors (maybe 1 in 7 starts of the windy boy).

Thank you for your help with this.

[Cor van Houtum]

Mike you say

Wind Starts
Aurora and windyboy come to life
Aurora comes online and produces power
when the wind gets high enough windyboy comes online
Auirora fails with RESO error.

my question ; what happeness when you disconnect the windyboy from the grid ?

and is there a relationship between riso error and the amount of power that is generated on this time ?

And an other question
has it ever worked ? or is this a new situation.

cor

[Mike Grzesiek]

If the windyboy is disconnected from the grid, it never comes online, and therefore no reso error from Aurora.

I have not noticed any relationship (not to say there isn't one) to power and error.

No, This problem has been ongoing, although better now that I isolated the Aurora and Windyboy Ground rods.

[Tom Hoffer]

Great Discussion! Am curious as to how you energized your field coils. I have a 10KW Jacobs I converted mechanically to a 17.5KW. Hoping to stand it up around Christmas. Way past schedule!

Tom Hoffer

[Mike Grzesiek]

Tom,

Way beyond the scope of my text. I'm running an 'out of the box' turbine with a couple of different mfg inverters. Consider starting another thread, There are some really smart people on here.

I feel your pain on being behind schedule, it took me about 6 months longer to get mine up. I hope it works out well for you.

Mike

[Cor van Houtum]

is it possible that your controller with field exciter is not completely separated from the grid ?

or am i talking nonsens

cor

[Tom Hoffer]

Your right, probably a different thread. I do have a solution that works well with my generator attached to the PTO of my tractor. Weather it works 100 feet in the air remains to be seen.

Thanks Tom

[Jeffrey Martin]

Hi Tom, I have a 17.5 jacobs that uses a 6k power one .It works very well with lighter winds so I started this thread to see if anyone was able to make the windy boy work with it in parallel.I use the old jacobs rectifier and capacitors with a small transformer that makes 30 volts and a bridge rectifier from radio shack(to power the field) I also have used a doorbell or old furnace transformer.I am using an omron voltage sensing relay to cut the field in over voltage. I am experimenting with a way to hook it up to the sto coil also (a resistance coil that the old jacobs box uses for their soft turn off system). I live 25 mi. south of the twin cities if you want to send me a private message. Jeffrey

[Mike Grzesiek]

is it possible that your controller with field exciter is not completely separated from the grid ?

or am i talking nonsens

cor

Cor,

Yeah, your starting to get a little technical for my knowlage. I don't know of any ' controler with field exciter'. If there is any such device, it would be in the turbine, unless you are talking about the Aurora Wind box (and it's Windyboy equivalent).

M

[Cor van Houtum]

I was thinking that the Jacobs has a special field that has to be powered
to regulate the output.
for my understanding is this a 2 amp DC field steering
but i am not sure about this.

Why I ask is like this,
I have installed a Hummer 5kw with on grid inverter
this machine was continous giving riso errors
then i found that insite the controller they have used the generator output to power also its own steering from the yaw motor insite the nacelle and the electronics for the wind direction.

but to steer the electronics by hand or when there is no wind then there should be a constant power to drive these motors.
What they have done is use the grid and put it on a rectifierbridge
and used the generator output and put it on a rectifier bridge
the output of both bridges where put in parallel.
and on this parallel conection was the main lead to the motor and electronics.
in this way the motor and electronics get always power DC
it can come from the grid or from the generator or even from both.

So when the grid falls of the electronics from the yaw motor will be powered true the generator.

this works fine when you have not connected a transformerless inverter

The downsite of this is that the grid and the generator are dc connected
with the rectifier bridge and a pull down resistor.
so between the generator and the grid will only flow a very small rest current
but this current is enough to trip the riso from the Aurora inverter.

what we done is put a small diversion transformer on the motor and electronics steering
in between the grid to get a galvanic divorce.

and the problem was solved.


what i mean to say is that if there are other things connected to the generator leads or to the field spools of a generator (when it has one ) then it could be possible to create a earth leak.

I realy do not know if you have something with this information
but i was only trying to think with you

Cor

[Jeffrey Martin]

Cor, I use the jacobs wind plant with the aurora 6k inverter and it works fine I just need more capacity so I thought the windy boy might work with it.I did have to remove the jacobs varistors because it would throw a fault with the aurora. Do the windy boys have varistors that could be causing the aurora to fault or is there a path to ground that could be opened up inside the windy boy? thanks Jeffrey

[Cor van Houtum]

Yes the windyboy has varistors also
look in your manual
it is possible to operate the unit without the varistors
you could bridge the connection

cor

[Mike Grzesiek]

I was thinking that the Jacobs has a special field that has to be powered
to regulate the output.


Yes the windyboy has varistors also
look in your manual
it is possible to operate the unit without the varistors
you could bridge the connection

cor

Cor,

I was about to reply to your earlier post to me, I was going to note that I was not using a Jacobs, and that it sounded like your explanation would benifit Jeffery (This threads starter). However Jeffery responded, and I'm thinking you and he have found the answer for both of us. I won't be able to test this for a few weeks, as I am out of town. But I'm encouraged. Thanks so much for your time.



Jeffery... Here is a link to the installer manual for the windy boy 6000

http://download.sma.de/smaprosa/dateien/5661/WB50_60-11-SE4005.pdf

The Varistor removal can be found on page 47.

And this one on bridging the connection...

http://download.sma.de/smaprosa/dateien/5693/SBTLHCMS-IEN080411.pdf

Page 49 has the discription of bridging the connection. If you try this before I do, please let me know how it works out.

Mike

[Mike Grzesiek]

Jeffery/Cor,

I had a chance to crack the case of my WindBoy today, and can not locate the varistors. I plan to call SMA on Monday, however I have a feeling that the model inverter I have does not use varistors.

Jeffery - Have you looked into this solution? HAve you had any luck?

[Jeffrey Martin]

Hi Mike, My windy boy doesn't have the normal varistors that I have seen before(it was manufactured in may of 2010) .There are some components that are connected to the case through the screws that hold the circuit board in place. These could be the problem but I cant get the windy boy to work by itself either it just sits there with the green light blinking at 1 sec intervals and says its waiting on wind. None of the warning lights are on and it has around 300v input is it possible that a fault needs to be cleared to reactivate it? I am waiting on the usb service interface so I can check on a fault codes thanks,Jeff

[Mike Grzesiek]

Jeffery,

If the WB is 'Waiting on Wind' the start voltage has not been hit for the specified time. Mine came set at 360V for 20 seconds, so it would not start until the input voltage hit and remained at 360V for 20 seconds. This is a remenant of the Solar settings.

Do you have any communication (rs485, sunny data, etc.) setup for the WB? If so I can help you adjust those settings. If not you will need to get that set up, or perhaps contact SMA to see if there is an alternitive configuation method.

[Jeffrey Martin]

Hey I've been busy but had time to mess with these inverters the other day and could get either inverter to run by itself but when the aurora comes on line it causes the windy boy to show disturbance imax.If the aurora is running first and the windy boy is turned on as soon as you hear the contactor click in the windy boy it will kick off the windy boy with the same fault. The aurora always keeps going.I'm using one rectifier to feed both units.For now the wind plant is on the low side of the voltage for the windy boy but in a 30 mph wind it can get to 310volts. When it warms up I can climb the tower and rerwire the alternator for higher voltage. does anyone have any bright ideas? thanks,Jeff

[Mike Grzesiek]

The imax error from the windy boy sugest an incompatiblity of the output setting between the Aurora and the windyboy. Do you have the ability to view/edit the Aurora and/or Windyboy settings?

I can give you my settings if they will help?

Mike

[Jeffrey Martin]

Hi Mike I have a windy boy usb service interface and I have the cable and software installed for the windy boy and aurora. I have changed the aurora wind table settings .I also talked to the tech's at both company's the windy boy thought that the code was caused by dc injection and the aurora guy thought it might be that the grid voltage was to high for the windy boy and the parameters would need to be opened up(my grid is at 249 volts).Any help would be great,thanks Jeff

[Mike Grzesiek]

Well... Rereading your You mention that you use a single rectifier? I have seperate rectifiers for each inverter. The Aurora uses a winbox, and the Windyboy is simply a rectifier wired to the 3-phase. I wonder if SMA be correct, and that is the problem. If you would like my settings for either or both let me know and I'll get them for you (no wind today, so I can't get them now.

[Jeffrey Martin]

Hey Mike,is your system working ok now? What is your grid voltage at and have you moved your windy boy parameters for that? Have you ever had an imax code?Do you think I should rig up a separate rectifier? Thanks again,Jeff

[Mike Grzesiek]

My system is working 'acceptable well', but not perfect. I still get a groung fault error on the Aurora every once in a while when the Windyboy starts (about 1 in 10 starts). I found (seems impossible, but I'm sure of it) If I don't start the Aurora software (Communicator or installer) ever, I get the errors FAR LESS ground fault errors. I was advised to try to bypass the varistors in the Windyboy to see if it solves the ground fault, but haven't had time.

My Grid voltage Runs at 246v (give or take a couple). I did not adjust the voltage in the windyboy for this (not sure what it's set at, and I can't check now because no wind). I did however raise the Aurora grid voltage (from 240 to 249) to reduce the output amprage.

I never ran these two inverters on a single rectifier, however prior to the Aurora I ran two Windyboys (1 6000 and 1 2500) on a single rectifier.

I don't recall if i ever got an imax error, but it sounds familiar. It may have been WAY back when I had the 2 windyboys. But if I did it was infrequent. I did wind up putting the 2 windyboys on seperate rectifiers, but it was more to take the preasure of the single rectifier than to correct an error.

Does the windyboy attempt a reset when it imax errors? For the cost of a rectifier I'd give it a try.

Hope that helps.

[Jeffrey Martin]

Thanks for the tips Mike. It resets itself after IMAX its that whenever the aurora is online the windyboy throws that code. If the aurora is on first the windy boy will begin its wait then as soon as you hear the contactor click the windy boy makes a buzzing noise for a second then the imax .If the aurora is off the windy boy will run till the aurora comes online then a buzz and then the imax.I guess I'll try the separate rectifier and see what happens,thanks again Jeff Hey Mike is your combo running ok?

[Mike Grzesiek]

Jeff,

My setup is running acceptable well. I still get a ground fault from the Aurora once in a while when the Windyboy starts (About one in 10 starts). I'm hoping when I get time to bypass the varistors that will cure the problem. Other than that I get Great bottom end performance from the Aurora, and the Windyboy is bullet proof. If it were not for the fact that the windyboy dosen't start until 250V, and the Aurora needs an isolating transformer to run two Aurora's, I would be very happy to own 2 of either of them.

I got to check my setting today, there is no voltage adjustment for the Windyboy (I guess that why I don't remember changing it).

Check these settings in your Windyboy if you can:

1) FaultCurrentMax - mine is 1.000 A
2) FaultCurrentFct - mine is .500 V/A

Not sure if that will help, but it's something to look at.

Also, I doubt that these are significant, but...

Are you running your inverters into seperate breakers, or do they share a breaker (It would have to be a big one)? I have seperate 30 Amp breakers the Windyboy and the Aurora. Also, My Breaker Panel also has a surge protector in it.

[Jeffrey Martin]

Hi, I had a good wind today so I installed a separate rectifier and presto the thing works great! They both ran all day together not one problem I just need to fine tune the wind curves and it should be a good system.Thanks to all who have helped and especially Mike sincerely,Jeffrey

[Mike Grzesiek]

Jeff - Glad that worked. Let me know if you experience the ground fault in the Aurora from time to time. I'm curious if we will both experience this.