China Wind Turbine Experience [Archive]

Gary St.Onge

23rd July 2010, 11:16

Hello Group,
I posted this message on the small wind group, and was asked to also post it here .......

I would like to provide some input, and personal experiences I've had with the
Chinese Wind Turbine manufacturer: Yangzhou Shenzhou Wind Generator company, or
SWG.

I have had two(2) of the 5000 watt systems from SWG and they do not work. The
controls have not ever worked, right out of the box they did not function. Not
the new system or the old style system. Fortunately, my start-ups have been
controlled and I did not had a catastrophic failure before taking it down. The
first one did burn up 2 inverters however.

It may be of interest to know I visited their factory in China and met with the
owner after installing machine #1. The owner readily admitted that the turbine
would never work because the yaw motor would always burn out. After 2 months
more of mis information from their inside sales team (Daniel Zhu and April
Wang), I threatened a law suit and they sent a new 5kW machine. This "new one"
is even worse than the first system. The scary part is these people are selling
allot of machines into the market, and it is highly likely someone will get
killed by one of these when the blades come flying off.

These turbines from SWG rely on electronic sensors, anemometers, dog-vanes to
position the system into the wind, and turn them out of the wind or apply a
brake during high winds. None of these controls work properly, the electronics
are complete failures and not well thought-out. Also, the new system relies on 2
small batteries inside the turbine head to control the yaw motor and hydraulic
brake, and after even a short power outage all control of the system is lost
because the batteries discharge rapidly. I experienced this issue with machine
#2, and of course they provide no means to access the battery or "jump it" with
an external battery. As I said, the design is not well thought out.

Others have also had disastrous results with these SWG turbines due to these
control failures, they can be seen at the web sites below. One family lost
$74,000 on a system that never worked, and the installer went bankrupt so they
had no recourse. And that is the problem, getting any of your money back from a
bankrupt company is likely not possible. Getting any satisfaction from a Chinese
company is a long process and will involve international legal action.

http://www.powershacks.com/redrivenfailures.html
http://wcco.com/local/faulty.wind.turbines.2.1186107.html
http://www.windaction.org/news/20716
http://www.wind-water-power.com

Many people in the US know this Chinese brand by the people selling to this
market:
ReDriven
Farm Boy Energy,
or
Skywing (Hong Kong) and there are many more.

Wind turbines need to be robust and have fool proof controls. I suggest if you
are interested in a wind turbine, speak to 2 or 3 people that already have the
unit of interest. Do not buy a prototype ! Be a certain as you can that the
machine of interest has performed for a significant time period, and has
withstood high wind events without damage. I also suggest you stay away
from Yangzhou Shenzhou Wind Generator company, or SWG - they are a very
unprofessional group of people that will happily steal your money as they have
tried to do with mine. I have been involved with wind turbines since 1982, and
these folks at SWG mislead and lied to me - so I hope you can learn from my
mistakes !
Caveat Emptor - "let the buyer beware."

Regards
Gary

Cor van Houtum

24th July 2010, 02:11

Hello Gary,

I maybe can give you some advice to get your new type turbine to work.

The batteries insite the generator should be charged with the controller
this is a permanent charging.

When the turbine comes from factory it is wired "off-grid"
you should make a direct grid connection to the input of the power supply
the 2 most left connections

Then upgrade the plc software to level 2.09
upgrade the touchscreen software to 1.05
install a safety relais in series with the dumpload relais coils

When you have a hydraulic yaw type look at next problems,
Do you use a change-over flange for the tower then it is possible this one is not correct made , it could block the yaw movement totaly when there is no spline for the boldheads
look at this.
The hydraulic oil tank is put in facing the oil fill cap upwards when the turbine stands
lowering the tower wil change the generator position to be horizontal and the fill cap on the site of the tank.
the filler wil start leak a bit and this spill will drip on the electric pump motor
this is a dc version motor with carbon brushes and because of the oilspill on the brushes this motor will burn and pull about 80 amps out of the batteries when working.
this should be 28 amps.
there is a retrofitkit available from the factory.
this kit is a pedestal for the motor and a set of oil pipe lines.
You should also replace the motor when you have had this leaking problem and high current on the motor.

Becarefull to replace also the bendix relais on the motor because it is possible it has burned in the contactponts because of the high current.
when this relais does not get the motor to work within the set up maximum gearblock time , then the yaw movement will fail .

As a final comment I must agree with you Gary that a enduser should not import a highly technical machine without the knowledge of

Electrics
Hydraulics
Electronics
PLC communication
Mechanics
inverters
dumploads

And never sell sutch a machine on a firm mono tower
always put it on a hydraulic easy to lower tower.

And I agree that SWG or Skywing should only sell true wel trained distribution channels
but unfortunately they sell to anyone who wants to pay in advance.
And the communication with Chinese manufacturers is not a easy job when you do not have a agent in the country.

Windgenerator are not a box movers bussiness !!!!

Kind regards
Cor

Rob Beckers

24th July 2010, 07:19

Hi Gary,

Welcome to Green Power Talk!
Couldn't agree more: These wind turbine manufacturers (and they are not only Chinese) should stop using their customers as beta-testers. Or worse, sell products where they know they are defective and won't live very long.

The other side of that same coin though, is that buyers should better inform themselves. If a Chinese turbine costs 1/3 to 1/4 that of a reputable brand of similar size you should expect to get what you paid for.

My own business imports and distributes French wind turbines. Despite being much better quality (and 4x the price of the SWGs and Hummers), we still have our share of issues. Even at best, wind turbines are just not the plug-and-play maintenance free source of energy that solar PV is. Despite being very simple mechanical devices, the harsh environment that turbines live in makes it very hard to get a reliable product. Some manufacturers do a (much) better job then others, none are completely trouble-free.

-RoB-

Alan Energy

25th July 2010, 21:10

Hi Gary, I am sorry to hear about your bad experience with Yangzhou Shenzhou Wind Generator company, and thanks for your sharing. I am thinking of buying a 10kW China Wind Turbine and probably sell wind turbine in my aera in future, a procurement service company suggest GHREPOWER(www.ghrepower.com) and HUAYIN(www.huayingwind.com) to me. Do you have any experience with these two wind turbine brands? The two is much more expensive than most other China wind turbines, and the information I got seem good. Maybe they worth a try? I appreciate any referentialexperience or suggestion.

Thanks
Alan

Gary St.Onge

26th July 2010, 14:04

Hello Cor,
Thank You for taking the time to reply to my posting and providing inputs
and possible solutions.

First I would tell you this is an asynchronous (induction) generator, so it
is only a grid tied machine. There is no setting for off-grid.
The software version is 3.1 and the interface is 1.8. I have a newer
version than you do.

I see you have also run into many problems by your comments.
In response to your comments:
1) Yes - they did not send the proper tower flange in the beginning - it
was sent after I told them it did not fit.
2) Initially the system was set for 50 Hz (I need 60 Hz) - once running it
ran like a fan and pulled power from the grid (I reset the parameters)
3)Yes oil leaks from the gear box - but the motor is not shorted out. The
system I have uses the new hydraulic reservoir so it does not leak.
4)The system will work from the manual controls - I can turn it and brake
it unless the battery goes dead.
5) As received the battery charger was not working and they would not
replace it - it cost $10.00

The automatic controls do not work - it will not face into the wind,
the over-speed controls do not work in auto mode. It also does not connect
to the grid reliably, so it spins free like a pin-wheel, because without
the grid there is no load on the rotor. Initially it did connect to the
grid, and when it did it shook the whole tower when is connected and
disconnected. Right now, this machine is an accident waiting to happen.

Also, the fault screen shows 5 errors, there are issues with the controller
I believe:
Battery
Dogvane
Hydraulic
Generator Temp
Controller temp
So even the controller knows there are serious issues - this machine is
just 2 months old !

The people at Yangzhou Shenzhou have no answers, no ideas how to fix it,
and have stopped answering emails. .
Regards
Gary

Cor van Houtum

26th July 2010, 15:24

Hello Gary,

I was confused because you say you lost 2 inverters.
when i understand right then you had a 5kw swg PM turbine and you replaced it with a 5kw Skywing turbine that connects direct to the grid without the use of inverters.

When you where in the factory you might have seen that there are 2 departments , one producing for native swg permanent magnet and one for the Hongkong based Skywing company.

try to sent a email to miss lucy Lee and explain your problem
and do not hessitate to tel her you got her adress from me.

we keep in touch , but i think it is better we continue this conversation on mail
cor@draaistroom.net

the mail adres from Lucy Lee Skywing Corp info5@skywingpower.hk

Gary St.Onge

27th July 2010, 07:29

Hello Cor,
The first machine was a PM generator and used inverters. The second machine is grid tied asynchronous machine (junk).

I have hired a lawyer in China and have started the legal process to reclaim my money and expenses. SWG will soon find out they are not above the law.

Regards
Gary

Don Gamble

18th September 2010, 11:55

I too bought a 5KW generator/controller from Yangzhou Shenzhou Wind Generator company, or SWG. I purchased it from Prevailing Power (a small company in southwest Iowa) that also manufactured the tower and installed the generator. There were nothing but problems with the installation of the generator (blades installed backwards and burned up controller) and they are now out of business. I have been trying to communicate with China but they have been very difficult to deal with (at best). They indicated that they would ship me another generator with a new controller (with the inverter built in) but that I would have to pay for the inverter, the import fee's and the transportation from a U.S. port of entry. I think this would be a mistake based on my previous experience with them and their lack of support. I have e-mailed them numerous times asking for the power curve for my generator but they will not even respond to the e-mails. I would recommend that everyone stay away from any products manufactured by them. I don't suppose that anyone has a power curve for the Shenzhou 5WK generator so I can load it into my Power One inverter?

It's good to see a web site with so much information available.

Thanks

Cor van Houtum

20th September 2010, 04:15

Hello Don,

I think that it is not fair to say that the factory sold you a bad product if someone is installing the thing wrong.
I realy wonder how mutch one knows from windturbines when the blades are put on wrong direction ?
when the controller senses that the voltage or windspeed goes over limits then the controller will steer the windmill max 180 degrees out of the wind.
the winddirection is seen by the dogvane.
BUT WHEN THE BLADES ARE WRONG DIRECTION FITTED then the controller will think it is
totaly out of the wind but in real live it is totaly in the wind.
this is the reason that the inverters will blow.
I think this is not a factory related problem but this is monkey bussiness.

I assume you have a "old type" 5kw generator with a ongrid/offgrid controllerbox
This is a big steel box on a pedestal with the dumploads screwed on this pedestal.

and you have a aurora 6000 inverter.

the next table works fine with this windturbine
http://www.draaistroom.net/5kw.mpp

you should not use a controller with the inverter build in

just keep on using the stainless steel box with a aurora

and put a extra dumpload on the pedestal
original there are two dumploads screwd on make this three

kind regards

Cor

Don Gamble

20th September 2010, 15:39

Actually I blame the manufacturer and the installer. It appears that from what I found out that the installer was pretty much clueless. I have tried to get information from the manufacturer and they have been unresponsive. Just this weekend I just reset my Power One Inverter to the power curve suggested to me and got a call at work from my wife today indicating that the wind turbine was pretty much spinning out of control and that the inverter was off. I told her to turn the wind turbine off, which she did. When I got home I tried turning it back on to see what had happened and the wind turbine virtually wouldn's spin, the inverter appears to be shorted out as I tried the turbine without the connection to the inverter and it spins fine. So far I have burned up 3 interface boxes and now it appears that the inverter has a problem. When I turned the generator on without the inverter load it spun up to about 240 RPM before turning out of the wind. The max voltage reached was right around 400 DC.when it turned out . I have been told that I'm having problems because I keep exceeding the max voltage of the interface and or the inverter and I'm just not seeing it. So far the only thing this generator has been good for is a place to hang my Christmas lights during the Christmas season. To say I'm frustrated would be an understatement, I'm not rich and am of a retirement age and hoped to reduce/eliminate my electric bill with this wind generator but it appears that there will never be a payback on my investment. I'm open to suggestions from everyone and have been doing everything within my power to make this thing work but I'm to the point of giving up and writing this thing off as a total loss. As I said before I have made less than $15.00 in electricity in 13 months. It was hardly worth the effort. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

Don Gamble

20th September 2010, 15:56

I wanted to add a little more info to my reply. I currently have a 10KW controller on my 5KW controller so I already have an extra load resistor. My first 5KW controller burned up when a fuse for the yaw motor blew the first time the generator really saw any wind and the generator would not turn out of the wind. I do have the original style of controller and have had problems with it ever since it was installed. I have had a 90 degree yaw alarm light on my remote panel on both of my controllers and SWG has not helped to solve the problem. I know of at least 4 other neighbors with the same generator and none of them have ever worked for more than a week or two before having problems. SWG referred me to Sky Power for resolution of my problems and we could not come to terms. They would send me a new generator/controller/inverter for $4,000 and I would have to take care of the import fee's, shipping to my location and installation (I figured it would be about $6,000). I don't want to spend a ton of money on a generator that will never pay for itself. I have worked on generators and turbines while working at the Naval Shipyard for about 18 years and have a good general knowledge of the systems and simply can not get the support needed to get this one to work.

Cor van Houtum

21st September 2010, 04:16

Hello Don,

We have a good understanding with the factory and i will try to help
first off all put pictures on this blog to show us exactly what you have on hardware,
there are different set-ups in the field and some installers have made some own solutions.

make good foto's of the insite of your controller

I am the 15e of November in china again and visit the swg factory
we do this a couple of times a year.

kind regards

Cor

Rob Beckers

21st September 2010, 07:56

Hi Don,

You can read what I think about Chinese wind turbine manufacturers earlier (above) in this thread, so I won't repeat that...

A couple of comments: You mention blowing interface boxes before. Were these Power-One's PVI-WIND-BOX'es, or is this the Chinese controller that comes with the turbine? If memory serves me the SWG comes with a rectifier as part of its controller, so you wouldn't need a PVI-WIND-BOX (Power-One's rectifier). You also mention that this time the inverter is likely blown, that has me wonder why this time the inverter and not the interface box?

Yawing out of the wind as a protection mechanism is much too slow to prevent overspeed in case there is no load on the turbine (for example when the grid power goes out). It takes literally a second or two for a turbine to spin up when unloaded to the point where the unloaded voltage is far above the 600V DC limit that the inverter can handle. This is not covered under Power-One's warranty (the inverter will log the event in memory before it blows, so they know), and they currently charge a fixed $1,000 repair fee for these inverters.

While dump loads have a rating measured in kW's, this is not the full story. The resistance of the dump load needs to be low enough, so sufficient load is put on the wind turbine to prevent it from running away. Under all conditions! In other words, it needs to be sized properly both in resistance and power rating to match the wind turbine.

Besides a dump load, I would strongly suggest a fail-safe backup mechanism that keeps high voltages out of the inverter no matter what. We've been using an Omron K8AB-VS3 voltage measurement relay, in combination with a contactor (rated at twice the expected current) to do this. The contactor is rigged to disconnect the 3-phase feed to the rectifier when there is no grid power, as well as to disconnect when the Omron relay senses a voltage of more than, say, 370V AC (it measures between two of the three phases). Depending on how the controller of the turbine is rigged, if it needs the DC voltage coming out of the rectifier for internal purposes, you may have to add an extra bridge rectifier and heat-sink just for the inverter (not a bad idea anyway, they are cheap, for about $80 you get a 1200V/120A rated 3-phase bridge which will never blow, adding extra protection for the inverter in keeping AC out of it).

What this does is disconnect the rectifier and inverter from the turbine when the voltage suddenly rises (above the set limit). The controller can then deal with slowing down the turbine at its own pace, by switching on the dump load and yawing out of the wind.

The thing with Chinese wind turbines is that many are mechanically OK. Decent alternators, decent construction. Where they fail miserably is in 'integration', it seems they slap some standard controller box on these turbines (the controllers all seem to come from the same factory, regardless of the brand of turbine), with total disregard for the specific needs of the turbine. Dump loads are usually much too small or sometimes completely absent. Voltage limits are set wrong. The design of the controllers has no fail-safe etc. I have to conclude that 'testing' is a word that does not seem to exist in the Chinese language. They just ship stuff out with no idea at all if it will work. Designs change weekly, so how could they even test and evolve to a stable product?

The new trend in North America is for US/Canadian brands to buy Chinese turbines, and 'rebrand' them. That can work, if the North American company does its homework and sort out those issues listed above.

The bottom line, for any grid-tie wind turbine, is that it has to stay under control no matter what. The grid can (and will) fail. Storms come through. None of this should cause the turbine to blow to bits or produce more than 600V DC.

-RoB-

Gary St.Onge

21st September 2010, 09:18

Regarding the inverter failures, the P1 inverter will blow if more than 6kW is pumped into the unit. I have done it twice with these SWG turbines.

Adding dump loads as a safety control offers the potential to ruin the generator, so while it may work it is a risky approach that may create bigger problems.

As noted in an earlier post, I have now hired a Chinese Attorney, and have started a lawsuit in China against SWG. This company is knowingly shipping junk products and basically thumb their nose at anyone that complains. I guess they will try to grad as much money as possible, and then will close shop.

If anyone has been stung by these folks and is interested in joining the lawsuit, please contact me directly. I have employees in China that are pressing this issue daily.
Regards
Gary

Cor van Houtum

21st September 2010, 09:56

Sorry Gary i do not agree,

you cannot pump more then 6kw into a Aurora pvi 6000
infact you are not pumping anything into the aurora
the inverter pulls the power out of the windgenerator

when the maximum power from the inverter is reached it simply stops doing more
it stays on 6200 watts and becomes stable .

BUT when the voltage is going up above 600 volts it will blow

The dumpload is just needed to make sure that the voltage is not rising to this limit
but the dumpload is not controlling the generator is mere a safety
The PLC insite the controllerbox must be set so that it starts to turn the generator
out of the wind before it reaches the dumpload limit.
but in real live this movement can be to slow and the wind will speed up the generator for a few seconds.
and these few seconds are enough to destroy the inverter.
So then the dumpload has to protect, and prevent the voltage line to go above 600 volts
DC at all times.

This is exactly the point that is not under full control with a standard swg controller.
thats why you have to change the settings and higher the dumpload capacity.

To keep the voltage away from > 450 volts (DC)
With the software and a 485 communicator you can open the PLC settings
you will find a setting
"movement 30 degrees yaw high voltage"
"movement 30 degrees yaw low voltage return"

there are also settings high and low voltage DUMPLOAD

Make sure that the generator turns away before it reaches the dumpload value.

in this way the gyroscopic force on the blades will not exeed the needed force from the motor to turn out of the wind.
when the blades are on the loose then the yaw motor does not have enough force to get it out of the wind and can even be damaged.

but I believe i told this story allready moretimes.

kind regards

Cor

Don Gamble

21st September 2010, 18:28

This was the first forum I have ever joined and am really surprised by all of the responses that I have received regarding my first couple of postings. I will try to clarify everything and answer all of the questions that have been asked of me. First off thanks for reading my postings and caring enough to respond.
First off, I would like to thank Cor for any help that he can provide as I'm ready to write off the generator as a complete loss. I will send you pictures shortly.
Secondly Rob, I wish I had read some of the forums about the Chinese generators prior to buying it or it simply wouldn't have happened. I thought I was on the forefront of technology and that the generator would help me towards and during my retirement, boy was I wrong. Yes, I have blown the thermisters in 3 interface boxes (I am told it is due to overvoltage). Each time it has been repaired it was not activated again until I had made adjustments to the generator controller in an effort to keep it from achieving an overvoltage condition again, but evidently it is going to be virtually impossible to have the controller react fast enough to prevent the overvoltage problem. I was watching the voltages the last time the thermisters in the interface blew and was not showing more than 450 volts at any time. My neighbor bought a relay that would short out the 3 generator leads in the case of overvoltage or lack of a grid and also a secondary resistive load that was connected directly to the interface, but he too has had problems with the interface and is now having his repaired for the 2nd time. I thought I would be in a better position as I already have a 10KW resistive load on my controller. I too finally figured out that the interface was not necessary and hooked the DC out of the inverter directly to the inverter, hence I now have an inverter that appears to be shorted as the generator will not spin up with the interface connected. As I have stated before I have burned up a controller, 3 interface boxes and now an inverter and the lifetime max output of the inverter before it shorted out was 5994 watts. When the generator was seeing wind on Monday it was turning in and out of the wind and spinning when shut down. The generator would not spin again after being turned back on.
Last item, I do have the software and cables to monitor and adjust the settings on the generator controller and have continued to decrease the yaw points with every failure but have continued to blow the interface and inverter. I also adjusted the inverter power curve on the inverter, to load up the inverter with more load at a much lower voltage than it was currently set to do, the same day that the inverter locked up. Power One recommended that I do not turn the system back on until the problems are resolved but with the installer bankrupt and the manufacturer not answering my e-mails or providing anything but a reference to SkyWing Power (who wants to charge me to upgrade my unit) I have received virtually not support from anyone until finding this web site.

After reading one or Cor's Posts I tried contacting SkyWing to see if they could provide me with the precise manufacturer's power curve for the generator I have and was told that their generators that they provide are different so they can not provide it. I have given up trying to get any support from Shenzou generator company as they have not replied to the last 4 e-mails that I have sent them.

I am 64 years old and hoping to retire soon. I have had a lot of experience with mechanical/electrical/electronic equipment over my lifetime and working on Navy Ships in a shipyard so I have a pretty good working knowledge of what should be happening with this generator and am pretty much baffled by all of the problems I have had.

Cor if you could get the manufacturer to stand up and support their equipment that would be great but I'm not holding my breath. I am at the point now to where I have a bad interface and inverter and do not plan on repairing them as this generator has made less than $15.00 in the 13 months that I have had it and I do not plan on throwing any more money down the drain. I am looking at Solar as an option, but after all of the experiences I have had with what was supposed to be a good Wind Generator I am very hesitant.

Again, thanks for reading and responding.

Ralph Day

22nd September 2010, 05:20

Hi Don
It sounds like you do your homework, or try to when information is available. There's a saying I saw on another forum: Go solar or go home. Solar might not produce much at night, in November or in the rain, but there's no moving parts and the electronics have a good history and track record in the small/domestic field. If you go with the big names you can't go wrong.

I have a 1kw SWWP H80, and it produces about 700kwhrs per year, about 20% of my yearly power requirements. It has lasted 6 years so far...I had to rebuild with bearings and bushings this last spring (about 9 months later than I should have), but that was easy with help, and $70 for parts. Small wind (under 10kw) has it's place, but you don't want to rely on it to make money or realize a payback. 2.1kw of pv and it just keeps on truckin'. Never a problem with the panels or controller (Sharp and Outback). 75% of renewable power used...the rest has been diesel generator (120hrs per year).

My best advice would be to smile, nod your head and say Lesson learned. Solar will be more rewarding and less exciting than wind production (will it work? will it blow up? all those questions you probably asked every time the wind blew).

Ralph

Don Gamble

25th September 2010, 20:06

Well I've done some troubleshooting using a temporary supply and found that 1 side of the inverter is grounded. Does anyone know if the aurora 6KW inverter has a crowbar like the interface does? Either way, does anyone have any ideas on how to repair the unit. I don't want to spend any more money on this system!

Thanks for any input you can provide.

Ken Hall

25th September 2010, 22:20

Hi, I'm Don Gamble's fellow traveler in pain in western Iowa.

I have a SWG 5KW generator and controller combined with an Aurora wind interface unit and inverter.

Here's my story to date

The SWG controller came without a dropping resistor to prevent blowing fuses for the yaw motor. Prevailing Power (the inept out-of-business installer) modified the controller to use 115VAC grid power to driven the controller instead of 230VAC grid and/or rectified system output. This modification eliminated the ability of the system to control itself on loss of grid and slowed down yaw rates.

Additionally, the setpoints for the controller were set extremely high.

The controller output feeds into an Aurora wind interface and then to an Aurora inverter. No dumpload was provided and the Aurora power curve was left at default values.

Prevailing Power, due to previous system failures, added to the system a shorting contractor to short the phases together on high voltage. For reasons unknown, the relay was normally open -- so it didn't provide any protection on loss of grid power -- required since the controller would only work on grid power.

System worked ok for three weeks until the crowbar in the interface unit failed on a gusty day -- 200 KW-hrs, best day 30 KW-hrs.

I worked with Ross Engineering for a normally closed contactor to serve as both overvoltage protection and as a loss of grid power shutdown system.

I also added a dumpload to the wind interface unit since the turnaway function was likely to act too slow. I also lowered the setpoints for the controller. I've made an additional 100 KW-hrs.

I've recently had a problem with fuses blowing in the interface. Cause unknown but I suspect the action of the shorting contactor maybe creating system surges, blowing the quick-blow fuses. Winds have been too low to troubleshoot (compounded by a too low tower but that's a different frustration story).

Based knowledge gained from this forum, I intend to reprogram the inverter power curves to better match generator parameters. I may raise the shorting contactor's voltage setting. In theory, the setpoint should make it the third line of defense but at times, it seems to be the first line of defense.

A major frustration is the lack of good documentation describing how the SWG controller is designed to function, how it will/should respond to different stimuli.

Consequently, I've had trouble getting the admittedly cobbled together system's setpoints to play nice together. Hopefully, the new power curve will help keep the generator from spinning up too fast and let the turnaway function work before the interface dumpload and/or the shorting contactor kicks in.

Any advise/knowledge on how the SWG controller is designed to work will be appreciated, particularly the various alarm functions.

Also, any details on the specifics of the "aviation plug" piece of the controller interface cable. I didn't receive one before Prevailing Power folded mid-installation. The RS 232/485 computer interface end is workable -- but I have not been able to find the 5 pin plug -- nomenclature or supplier.

Thanks,

Ken

Cor van Houtum

26th September 2010, 07:25

Hello Ken,
help me out to understand what you are saying,

to program the PLC insite the SWG controll box you need a interface that
goes from 485 to USB
this interface comes as a standard together with the controller.
Also the software is on the disk in the box.

to connect this interface you choose a calm day and disconnect the display controll box
from the aviation plug insite the big controllerbox.

then connect your interface instead of the display on to the same connector.

start up your program and you can change settings
make sure that the 485 interface creates a com port that is within 1-8
becouse the software cannot adapt to higher numbered port as 8.

then alter the settings to the point that the yaw attack is on a much lower voltage
then the dumpload brake attack triggerpoint.

This system does not need a Aurora controllbox
the aurora box is a 3phase rectifier wich can do 7200 watts max
this means that every phase diode can do approx 2400 watts of power
when you put the aurora in series with the swg dc output then you can only use 2 out of three phase
this means that this box will blow at 4800 watts
the swg generator can do easy 7000 watts even it is rated 5kw

another mistake what is made often is to wait with yaw attack till the aurora voltage is reached on his max.

lets say you programm 6200 watts on 310 volts
One has now the understanding to let the brakes and the yaw work above this value
then you are to late !!!
it makes no sense to drive the aurora to its max and then hit the brakes.
you must turn away from the wind 45 degrees before this max is reached
then the voltage comes down and on the second triggerpoint it will turn back into the wind
and so on and so on.

Then when there is no way to drop the voltage even do it is turning away then the dumpload should attack

so i suggest

turn yaw away on 45 degrees at level 300 volts
let it return at level 270

put the dumpload trigger on 320
let it go on 270

so at 270 the motor turns into the wind and the dump is also released

this all happeness within the specs of the aurora
becouse when you overload the auro it will automatic decrease its power
look in the book at the decreasing flank of the power protection.

so when the aurora pinches its own power the generator will even go faster
and blows everything.

The main problem of this system is in two parts
first there is a 6kw inverter and a 7kw generator
second some people use the aurora as a dump

the system should work days aand days without a aurora connected
the controller and dumpload should controll the generator in such a way that everything keeps in limits also without a inverter connected.

kind regards

Cor

Cor van Houtum

26th September 2010, 07:42

Rob Beckers

26th September 2010, 08:27

Don, the input of the Aurora has a number of MOVs in sockets (red 'coin' shaped devices with three leads). They provide surge protection, but sometimes blow in case of overvoltage as well. If any of 'm look fried (black) you could try replacing. Other than that there's not much I can think off. Unfortunately Power-One does not share circuit diagrams with me. In general, the inputs (there are two of them, hooked up in parallel for the wind inverters) have a boost stage. Likely consisting of a single IGBT per input. That is followed by an H-bridge (4 IGBTs). To the best of my knowledge there is no crowbar circuit in the inverters.

By the way, the crowbar in the wind box was designed to blow the input fuses (guessing from the circuit). The design engineer made the mistake of paralleling three NTC resistors (black little disks), a big no-no in electronics design as one of the three is always going take on almost the full current instead of sharing as regular resistors would, causing the NTCs to blow in case of overvoltage.

The Aurora wind box is not rated by Wattage (despite the 7200W designation), the limit is current, regardless of Wattage. Each of the 3-phase inputs has a 20A fuse, once you get close enough to that value it'll blow (and that can happen at, say, 2kW if you have a low voltage and high current). We've tried increasing the fuses, but 20A is pretty much the limit if the bridge rectifier is to survive long-term. At 25A per fuse the bridge will overheat and blow eventually. As Cor mentioned, for most Chinese wind turbines you don't need the Power-One wind box, their controllers already have a bridge rectifier build-in. Of course, instead of blowing a wind box (that can be repaired) you'll now blow an inverter in case of overvoltage...

Ken, the Aurora wind inverters do not have a 'default' MPPT curve. They actually come empty from the factory. So, someone must have loaded a curve, hopefully the right one for your turbine. If you let me know the exact diameter of the turbine, rated wind speed, rated power, and rated DC voltage (at rated wind speed), I can generate an MPPT table that should be close enough to work well.

-RoB-

Don Gamble

26th September 2010, 09:23

Ken has the same generator and setup that I do. I have given him the power curve that you sent me along with the curve that Cor sent me and the original curve that was in the inverter when it was installed. Cor, Ken is looking for a source for the wiring setup and connectors needed to program the controller. As far as I know none of the other customers that purchased generators from Prevailing Power (now out of business) received the cabling and software as i happened to see it and insisted on having it and was told that they normally do not give it to the end users. Ken and I have been sharing the cabling and software required to program the controller.

Ken I have looked for anything inside the inverter that might have overheated and have found nothing. I have a total of 4 MOV's that are blue and appear to be in "like new" condition.

Cor, you indicated that you had a connection with the factory. My PLC has never had a light on even though the generator appears to yaw correctly. My controller continually displays a 90 degree yaw alarm even though the generator appears to yaw correctly. Checking the voltage on the yaw motor it is just over 100 volts when hawing and I know the yaw motor is a 240 volt motor. Any chance you can get the factory to replace this obviously defective controller?
The generator will spin up and the inverter comes on if I apply power only to the left side of inputs. The generator will not spin up if the inputs on the right are utilized. Is there anything else that anyone can think that would ground out just the 1 side of the inverter?

Ken Hall

26th September 2010, 17:16

Cor,

Thanks for the thoughts on the proper setpoints. As Don indicated, we are sharing a programming cable for the PLC.

I'm looking for technical data on the "aviation plug" so I can make my own.

My goal is to adjust the setpoints so, if the wind goes too high, things happen in this sequence.

1) The PLC turns the generator 45 degrees from the wind.

2) The PLC activates the SWG dumpload

3) The Aurora wind interface dumps to its dumpload

4) The shorting contactor closes

all before we reach any limit on the inverter or blow any fuses.

On a separate note:

I've noted a behavior for which I can't find any description in the manual. On an extremely gusty day, after several 45 degrees turnaways and returns, the system will turnout to 90 degrees, show an alarm light, and stay at 90 degrees. After several minutes, the alarm light goes out and the system turns slightly back towards the wind (about 3 secs of yaw/10 degrees). After 3 minutes of countdown, the system turns back with another 3 secs of yaw. It takes a long time to get back to any significant generation levels.

Is this design behavior to minimize damage potential while a storm front passes?

I'm not sure why Prevailing Power chose to use an Aurora windbox instead of feeding the controller's DC output straight to an Aurora inverter. Since I have the configuration, and the windbox gives me fuses and another dumpload upstream of the inverter, I'm inclined to leave it in place.

Thanks,

Ken

Cor van Houtum

27th September 2010, 02:56

Hello Ken,

Please sent me your adres and i will put a cable with interface in the mail

kind regards

Cor

Cor van Houtum

27th September 2010, 03:02

before i forget,

when you have changed something in the plc settings you have to disconnect the plc from any power so it is totaly dead and then start up again

this is the only method to let the plc read the new settings

then further , the plc lights on the righthand site should be on and some of them are flickering.

if this is not the case then i suggest you look at your power supply ,
in the upper left corner from the power supply is a trim screw
measure with your multimeter the output of the power supply
i had this once that the voltage was not enough to let the plc work
you can slowly increase , decrease the voltage with the power supply trim.

kind regards

Cor

Cor van Houtum

27th September 2010, 03:06

when you write something into the plc
and then read the plc again it seems that nothing has changed
this is normal.
you should first power it down and up again before you check your new settings
with a new read.

cor

Rob Beckers

27th September 2010, 07:33

The generator will spin up and the inverter comes on if I apply power only to the left side of inputs. The generator will not spin up if the inputs on the right are utilized. Is there anything else that anyone can think that would ground out just the 1 side of the inverter?

Sounds like the boost stage on that side is blown. There should be an IGBT in there (or possibly a MosFET). That would be the most likely candidate. As I said, Power-One doesn't give me the circuit diagrams for their inverters so I know about as much about the insides as you do.

Now that you mention it I remember our E-mail conversation regarding the MPPT curve. As long as those parameters you sent me are correct that should be a reasonable curve.

Keep in mind, the inverter is not there to keep the turbine under control! Even with the inverter switched off the turbine should be under control.

-RoB-

Rob Beckers

27th September 2010, 14:44

I worked with Ross Engineering for a normally closed contactor to serve as both overvoltage protection and as a loss of grid power shutdown system.

Ken, what brand/type contactor are you using? I've been looking for a NC type contactor that can handle a turbine of about the same size/current as yours.

Thanks!

-RoB-

Cor van Houtum

28th September 2010, 03:29

you wrote

Prevailing Power, due to previous system failures, added to the system a shorting contractor to short the phases together on high voltage

Ken, I think you are going to lose the generator if you short circuit the phase in full power.

you have to put the contactor towards a dumpload

and by the way the cable and the interface i put in the snake mail
it is boxed in a envelope and i hope your customs will let it in for free
i put on the envelope that there is no commercial value

kind regards

cor

Ken Hall

28th September 2010, 20:29

RoB,

Here's the company contact for the contactor

Jim Ross
VP Sales
Ross Engineering Corporation
540 Westchester Drive
Campbell, Calif. 95008
408-377-4621 PH
408-377-5182 Fax
ISO 9001:2008 QMS Certified
www.rossengineeringcorp.com
Email: jimross@rossengineeringcorp.com

Cor,

Agreed, shortening under load is never a good idea. If I get the turnaway, dumploads, and diversion load setpoints right , the system should never need to short out. But with, the controller bastardized to use grid power only, I need something to prevent a runaway if I lose the grid in a storm.

Don Gamble

30th September 2010, 05:57

How about it Cor are you going to be able to get SWG to honor their warranty by replacing the defective controller and or providing the support necessary to get my controller working?

Tom Paynter

30th September 2010, 20:11

Hello everyone. A new member so first time on. I have a 5K SWG turbine, with a Windy Boy inverter. The unit has been working for over 2 1/2 yrs. but it has been quite a learning lesson. I make an average of 150 to 500K per month. I have built a dumpload, sensing off the 3 ph. wild before the controller. I was sent a off-grid controller, so I reprogrammed the Windy Boy to start VDC at 250, mid at 265, and full 6K at 280 VDC. The turbine itself, has been almost trouble free, but I have reworked almost everything, some for the good, and some not so good. I have talked to alot of people that have these turbines, and they all have stories, to say the least. You can make these work, but the dumploads are not big enough, and the yaw motor is not fast enough to turn the turbine out of the wind, in a storm. I have done testing on these units, and can tell you problem areas, and the fixes I have come up with. Where are all of you located in Iowa, as I am located in far SW Wis., near the state line. I would help you if I can, but the things I have found would take up alot of space. I, to, have went through inverters, before I pegged the over voltage, and just how fast the DC voltage can ramp up over 600 volts. I will post again when I have alittle more time, and I wish everyone well with their turbines. PS: I have found parts for these turbines, as there are quite a few out there. They are not the top of the line units, but I guess this is what we get for trying to save a few bucks.

Don Gamble

1st October 2010, 14:16

I spent good money on this generator and at no time was I told that this unit would not work properly or that it was a prototype, which it appears to be since the design simply does not work properly. The SWG website claims that they have over 40,000 generators currently installed out there in the world. That led me to think that I was dealing with an established manufacturer that knew what they were doing When I bought this unit I was told that I had a 5 year warranty. The installer has, like so many other installers, gone bankrupt while trying to get these generators to work. When I look at the SWG website I find that there is only a 2 year warranty and have found through several email's with the manufacturer that they do not stand behind their warranty, even a little bit. I can not even get data or information from SWG as they will not even answer my email. I don't plan on spending another dime trying to resolve SWG's design problems. Worst case scenario I will take this unit out and claim it as a loss on my taxes. At least that way I can recoup at least a small portion of what I have spent. I could not, with a good conscience sit back and let SWG continue to sell products that do not work as advertised and am going to do everything in my power to prevent anyone else from buying their product. If I sound bitter then I'm getting my point across because SWG has made me bitter and very apprehensive of alternative energy, it appears that there must not be any regulations imposed on the industry that require their products to work as advertised. Based on my last 13 months of energy production it will take 10 years just to pay for one of my three interface repairs and I now have an inverter in need of repair. The only generators I could recommend would be Bergey because I know of a neighbor with a unit that has been running for over 15 years. I have stressed about getting this generator up and running correctly for over a year and a half and have given up. If anyone else out there has an SWG generator then you have my condolences as their support to their customers is virtually non-existent.

Tom Paynter

1st October 2010, 17:16

I share in your thoughts, and wanted only to offer help to anyone that needed it. I do not promote this turbine, but I am only working with what I have. My dealer was EMark from Canada, and they are also bankrupt. Sorry if I came across as if this was a great product. You should not have to do anything to a product, that you pay good money for. I was only offering help, if someone wanted to get their units going.

Don Gamble

1st October 2010, 18:31

I just wish that I could have found out more about this generator prior to purchasing it. I do what I can for the environment (I drive a Prius and use CFL and fluorescents wherever possible). I would accept any help I can get to get this thing working correctly, but so far every fix requires more money and I've spent about all I'm going to in order to get this thing working like it is supposed to. SWG refers me to their sister company (sales) who would send me another generator and controller for a reduced price, but from what I've read it seems to have similar problems and I don't feel that I should have to spend several thousand more of my money to get there faulty product to work. At this point I have a controller that doesn't control and a damaged interface and inverter. None of the repairs to the interface or inverter are covered by warranty so that adds to the expenses. I appreciate your offer of help but unless the manufacturer is willing to honor their warranty I will most likely repair this unit. At this point my goal has shifted from getting this thing operational to taking my losses and doing my best to make sure that nobody else buys this product from SWG or Sky Wing Power. I want to thank you again for your willingness to help and your input on this forum.

PS: We live near the southwest corner of Iowa.

Cor van Houtum

1st October 2010, 19:27

Hello Don,
I am sure that there must be someone that can help you but first make an inventory of what is going on
I have the feeling that frustration rules here.

as i am understanding your story (correct me if not correct)

your turbine generator is still working ?
someone messed with the swg controller
the aurora controller you do not need in this system so get rid of it.

the original swg controller with dumpload and pedestal costs about 500 dollars
if you import it direct your self.

I understand that you have direct contact with the factory that means that you know the prices and the way to get the goods.

please guys this is not a expensive machine but i think that someone out there is trippling the prices

When you could become a new controller what would you do with it ?

yes please as i said before and also others on this forum expierenced
you need to change the set up of the controller
ad extra dumpload
ad a overvoltage securety relais to secure your aurora
re programm the plc to lower values.

then the machine will work
I have one of the same type running here and it runs fine.

as we are selling these turbines here it is not in my interest to read all this negativety on this blog.
so yes i am biased (colored or whatever you may call it)

I go to visit on the 13e of november the factory again
and i promise you that i will talk your situation over there
but what do you want me to do ?
don't say warranty !!
Ill ask on what ?
the aurora and the aurora interface they will never pay for , it is simply not coming from swg.
the only thing what could be mallfunction then is a 500 dollar controller when the turbine is still working.

give me the right tools and i will try to help

Cor

Cor van Houtum

1st October 2010, 19:44

for the guys who want to look at my head on local tv

http://veghel.kliknieuws.nl/videos/?v=65x769yu5B6

but it is in dutch and takes 25 minutes program

Don Gamble

1st October 2010, 23:51

Yes, Cor the generator is still working and my frustration level is through the roof. The SWG controller was replaced after the first one burned up (one of the yaw motor fuses blew and the generator did not turn out of the wind). The replacement controller was for a 10KW generator and as such has a larger resistive load. The replacement controller was modified by the installer and I was told at the time that this was a modification that was being directed by SWG to keep the fuses from blowing again and the yaw motor from burning up. After 2-3 months of the installer telling me that my controller had been recalled by SWG and that a replacement controller and then controller/generator was on it's way, they closed their doors and went out of business. I don't expect SWG to replace my interface even though it would not have failed due to over voltage 3 times if the controller had performed properly and controlled the generator. I was told that SWG no longer made a controller without a built in inverter because of all of the problems that they had encountered with failures. I was offered another generator with a new controller by (built in inverter) for $4,000 by Sky Wing Power, but I would have to pay the import fee's and transportation costs from an entry port to my location and pay to have it installed (this would cost me about $6,000 more than I've already spent for the unit). The inverter I already purchased would not have failed if the controller had worked properly. The only thing I have right now that seems to function are the generator and the tower.

I expect SWG to do what any manufacturer should do and replace defective equipment. If the design is defective they they should replace the equipment with a design that functions properly. I now have an interface that has been burned up 3 times ($140 for each repair) due to a generator controller that does not control the generator properly. I also have an inverter that has now failed ($1,000 to repair), again due to the controller not controlling the generator properly.

I don't feel that I should have to add anything to the system to get it to work properly if the SWG design is correct.

I do have a price list but they no longer manufacture the same generator and controller that I purchased so the prices have changed.

I feel that SWG owes me an operational system and for them to refer me to Sky Wing Power (for warranty coverage) who wants to charge me $4,000 because the system now includes a built in inverter is not reasonable. I think that you and I both know that the Chinese built inverter is not worth $4,000.

The fact that the original design is flawed is not my fault and that the interface and inverter would not be damaged if the design of the SWG controller worked properly. I would be willing to pay for the duties, shipping to my house from the nearest seaport and installation. I am not willing to pay SWG anymore money to get this system working. I have already lost 13 months of energy production and incurred additional repair costs while trying to get this poorly designed system to work. I have already determined that this generator will not payself during my lifetime.

Please let me know what SWG will do to make this right.

Thanks

Rob Beckers

2nd October 2010, 07:14

RoB,

Here's the company contact for the contactor

Jim Ross
VP Sales
Ross Engineering Corporation
540 Westchester Drive
Campbell, Calif. 95008
408-377-4621 PH
408-377-5182 Fax
ISO 9001:2008 QMS Certified
www.rossengineeringcorp.com
Email: jimross@rossengineeringcorp.com

Ken, what's the type number of the contactor you're using? I've asked Jim Ross, but his suggestions are for very expensive high-voltage contactors. That's not exactly what I'm looking for (and vastly overrated in voltage).

-RoB-

Cor van Houtum

2nd October 2010, 12:07

I was offered another generator with a new controller by (built in inverter) for $4,000 by Sky Wing Power, but I would have to pay the import fee's and transportation costs from an entry port to my location and pay to have it installed (this would cost me about $6,000 more than I've already spent for the unit). The inverter I already purchased would not have failed if the controller had worked properly. The only thing I have right now that seems to function are the generator and the tower.

Hello Don,

The skywing company is a OEM company that sells the SWG turbines with a 3 phase direct coupled grid generator.
the controllers are not compatible with your turbine

you have a permanent magnet generator original SWG

the controller of the skywing has no inverter build in becouse they do not need a inverter
when they say that the controller is direct on-grid they do not mean that there is a buil-in inverter in this box.

so forget this

what is defect on your controller ?
it is nonsens to replace a controller this big .
are the dumploads good ?
is the box in good shape ?
does the rectifier bridge work ?
is the internal power supply working ?

can you yaw your turbine manual with the controller ?
do you read windspeed on the display ?

if you pull the righthand switch does the turbine stop ?
is the box wired on-grid or off-grid (look in the manual)

do you drive the box on 230 volts where it is made for ?

I need some more info to help

Cor van Houtum

2nd October 2010, 12:19

is the yaw turning in the right direction when you turn it with the manual buttons on your display unit ?
I saw that there could be a wrong wiring instruction.
on the white fused terminals the numbering is sometimes wrong and does not correspond with the cable numbering
when these are switched the turbine yaw motor will not damage but it turns to the wrong direction and makes the plc go crazy
it is a dc motor and reversable
infact that is what the relays are doing they reverse the ploarisation of the motor to let it turn right or left.

the turbine will never face wind correct in the case of wrong wiring

Don Gamble

2nd October 2010, 19:46

That's a lot of questions, but I know enough about the unit to answer all of them.

Yes the controller works to yaw the generator and it does yaw in the correct direction. It turns into the wind when it starts up and turns out of the wind when the speed and voltage become too high. The only problem is that by the time that it has turned out of the wind the interface or inverter is already damaged.

No, I don't believe that I have 230 volts everywhere that the controller requires it as I only have about 110 volts going to the yaw motor when it is activated. I'm sure that this does slow down the yaw function, but was told by the company that installed my generator that they had been instructed to reduce the voltage after my first controller self destructed by frying the controller power supply.

Yes the display unit does display correctly except for the 90 degree yaw alarm light that is always on when there is power to the controller.

Yes the dumploads are still intact and the generator does slow down and eventually come to a stop when activate the right hand switch. The dumpload does tie into the system and eventually stop the generator. As I said before I have a 10KW dumpload.

Yes the rectifier bridge is working well, I ran the inverter without the interface for about 2 weeks before the wind gusted and damaged the inverter with over voltage.

It was Skywing that wanted to charge me $4,000 for a replacement generator under the warranty and stated that the $4,000 charge would be for the built in inverter. If you would like, I will forward an e-mail from Sky Wing that talks about the requirement for me to pay for the built in inverter.

The other issue I have is that the PLC works, however there is never a light on it that lights up or even flickers. This indicates to me that something is not correct with the unit. I am hearing from several others that I should try different things to get this generator to work and I just don't think I should have to do the research and design of this unit as it is advertised as being a functioning wind generator.

I appreciate you taking the time to look into this issue and hope that you can resolve the issues I'm having with this unit, I wish I had connected with you sooner.

Thanks

Cor van Houtum

4th October 2010, 03:37

Hello Don,

I think that it will be very un easy to walk true all the settings of the turbine

instead of this i will make a movie where i can show you all the aspects of the turbine as i have it here running.

I will show you some measurement and behaviour of the turbine

but then i need some extra time to make this film.

maybe other users of this turbine will be pleased also

a video shows more then a 1000 words

John Szegda

4th October 2010, 21:20

Hello Cor,

I am erecting a 12m SWG Tower. I like to extend the Tower a few feet using 6" pipe. I had been searching the Internet for a flange to weld the 6" pipe on, but no luck. I was wondering if you knew where to purchase one or maybe a sketch you could send me, so I could have one fabricated. I thank you in advance.

John

Cor van Houtum

5th October 2010, 02:01

hereby the users manual

http://www.f-n.cn/eweb/uploadfile/2010527145037.doc

on page 9 is the bleuprint of the flange

Cor van Houtum

6th October 2010, 06:29

Hello Don, and other interested members.

The setting of the 5kw swg turbine as it works fine

are in the attachments

Then I have some extra info
When you try to communicate with the aurora installer software on the usb bus then it is likely that the software cannot find the inverter or the usb port is not connecting to the aurora.

This is due the fact that the driver "graps" the serial number of the aurora last connected.
the easy way to get this working again is to remove all connections that where ever made on your computer with usb devices.
there is a utility wath comes handy to do this
it is called usb deview.
install it and run it in administrator mode
then you see all the old connections
select all and remove all of these.
then connect your aurora again and whoooopy it works

you can find the software in the attachments of this thread.897

898

899

What i have been telling about the yaw direction of the turbine,

stand for your turbine facing the blades
put your controller terminal on manual yaw
pressing the right arrow must aktivate the yaw movement to the right.
this is counter clock

when it moves to the left (clockwise) you should reverse your yaw wires.

Cor van Houtum

6th October 2010, 06:40

When you try to yaw the 5kw turbine with the relays insite the controllerbox
beware !!!

pushing the relays manualy can also aktivate the yaw movement

NEVER DO THIS WHEN YOUR TURBINE CONTROLLER IS IN AUTO YAW MODE

when the plc decites to put the yaw movement automatic to adjust the turbine into the wind and you are also pushing the relays with your finger at the same time
it can make a SHORT CIRCUIT on your relays and it will flame and burn instantly.

this is due the fact that the relais are reversing the DC plus and minus to the yaw motor

this is a free warning
the next one will cost you a relays

Lorena Mitchell

6th October 2010, 12:49

Cor van Houtum

6th October 2010, 14:02

hi guy's,

I think i am making a big mistake trying to help you with the technical aspects of these turbines.

Some of you are not end users but have been selling the turbines , or are still selling chinese turbines.

like Hummer and SWG brands
most US turbines are also manufactured in China

An end user does not import a turbine but buy's it at a reseller in his country,
I do not know how the law in the US or Canada is but here in Europe the Reseller is held responsible for the goods he is selling.
And a good reseller refunds or repairs the turbines and makes his customer happy,

But here it seems that a importer / reseller starts to behave as a consumer end-user.
should it be possible that this is due a lack of brand knowledge ?

My advice : stop selling windturbines or invest in the knowledge.
windturbines are not box movement goods.

John Szegda

6th October 2010, 14:24

BRAVO Cor

John

Don Gamble

6th October 2010, 18:38

I agree that you should not be helping out others who sell or install the wind generators from China as a business. But there are also a lot of us out here who have had their generators installed by companies that have gone bankrupt and have no recourse to get their generators fixed unless we want to attempt it ourselves. There is virtually nobody out there that wants to try to fix these generators, but they will sell us new units of a different design at a price. As an end user with no installer to rely on and a manufacturer who won't respond to e-mails, I have no recourse but to try to fix it myself and am depending on any information or help I can get over the internet to resolve my issues. I am not rich and have already invested too much money on this generator to let it simply sit.

Personally I don't think I should have to depend on you or anyone else on the internet for information on my unit, but the manufacturer (SWG) has chosen not to provide support of any kind (not even information on the unit).

I'm not sure who you are implying is a reseller or installer, but I can assure you that I am neither and appreciate any help I can get!

Ken Hall

6th October 2010, 21:53

Cor,

Thanks for posting the set points. I'm still confused on how some of them work.

I understand "high drift 45" System turns away 45 degrees until voltage comes down and then turns back to the wind.

High Drift 90. I haven't seen a 90 degree turn and then prompt return. I've seen it turn out 90 with a 90 degree yaw alarm and then very slowly, over minutes, in small steps, turn back.

I'm guessing current is sensed off the internal rectifier but what's the machine supposed to do at the set point? Yaw 45?

There's no brake. Are the brake setpoints for the dumpload (table 5 in the manual separates brake and dumpload functions)?

What is the function of the "On grid Over-voltage-delay? Seems if we're overshooting on voltage generation because of mechanical delays, we would want that as low/short as possible.

What is "angle return difference" and "basic angle"? what does changing these values do?

Same question for low winds speed (I'm guessing this is the wind speed below which the controller will not try to trace to)?

No idea what "low rotate speed" does, particularly with a setting of 75 rpm. I'm still generating power considerably below that.

"Time of yaw cycle" Is this how long the system waits to chase/trace a swifting wind to see if it shifts back? System wants to wait 180 sec regardless of this setting. Why does it only turn back in small steps?

Since I'm an end user (like Don Gamble) who has to act as his own installer, where do I find/learn answers to questions like these? Is there a technician manual in addition to the "Controller Guide for WTGS from SWG"?

Thanks,

Ken

Cor van Houtum

6th October 2010, 23:38

I have made a table for you
with the setting and explanation of how I think it is working
remember this my homework and is not coming from the factory

Riccardo Testi

7th October 2010, 10:36

Hi
I have buied an turbine SWG of 20kW. I know that the PLC has a password. Which is the password?
Thanks
Riccardo

Cor van Houtum

7th October 2010, 10:56

Hello Riccardo,

Do you mean the programming password of the misubishi plc ?
or do you mean the password on the touchscreen ?

To program the plc you need a programmers tool from mitsubishi
then you can read the program to your laptop
but it will ask for a password to enter the plc

if you just want to shoot a new version into the plc you do not need the password
because the plc will be erased totaly .

if you are trying to read the plc and find out what and how the program is working
then i advise you to spare your time,

I allready did this and the results are that the source is programmed in to the most un logic ladder we ever seen , and the text to get around a lttle bit in the program is all in chinese or is just not there.

To read the plc you need to crack the plc main password.

sent me a mail cor@draaistroom.net and i will explain how you crack the plc password

kind regards

Cor

Ken Hall

7th October 2010, 20:13

Cor,

Your table is most useful! Consistent with what I've observed.

My return angle setting was 5 degrees. Explains why it was so slow to turn back into the wind.

The time of yaw cycle also explains why I would get the yaw 90 alarm after several strong gusts. Mine was set to 180. Second 90 yaw would come within this period, generating the yaw alarm.

I'll update tomorrow.

Thanks again!

Ken

Ken Hall

16th October 2010, 17:16

Cor,

Finally matched my schedule and some (but not much) wind and went to update my "angle return difference."

System "took" the change to 15 degrees but magically changed my high rotate speed to 8 rpm. Took me a while to discover why it was immediately turning out of the wind and braking (config cable was hooked up (thanks) and control grasp kept giving me a serial port error).

I'm getting J1 and J2 Overtime alarms -- first noticed J2 when I turned the system 180 degrees to undo a "circle" before I shut it down before a business trip. Same thing happened today when I manually turned it into the wind (light winds) when I started the system back up. J1 alarm also came on but the system was doing a lot of yawing before I figured out the changed rotate values.

What do these alarms mean? Is there a way to reset/acknowledge them? Do they reset after time?

Thanks,

Ken

Cor van Houtum

17th October 2010, 15:37

Hello Ken,

I do not believe in magic !
Everything has his reason

everytime you change a setting in the plc you have to sent it to the plc to make it permanent.

then you have to reset the power on the plc and start it up again from scratch on.

then control your last settings with the software
just read the plc again and see if the settings are in the NV ram

Do not change more then one setting at the time

cor

Ken Hall

17th October 2010, 17:39

Cor,

I don't normally believe in magic either but....

I didn't go anywhere near those rotate settings -- both the high and low changed.

I did change more than one thing at a time (angle and cycle time).

I sent it to the PLC, received the acknowledgement, turned off the power and then turned it back on. I did not try to read the PLC until after I had cycled the power.

I'll stick to the one thing at a time rule and see if the elves stay away.

Ken

Ken Hall

30th October 2010, 15:13

Cor (or others),

How do I get the SWG PLC to reset after an error?

I'm getting J1, J2 and Reverse Overtime errors. The only way I can get them to clear is to reset power.

These errors are recent. I'm not sure what I could have changed in the settings to cause them. They seem related to long slew angles when the wind comes up in a new direction.

Ken

Cor van Houtum

1st November 2010, 04:28

I am still wondering all the time about the bad yaw movement you people in the states have
with the swg turbine

is there anyone outthere who can measure the dc voltage that goes to the yaw motor ?

I will time the movement when i turn the generator manual 360 degrees
so you can compare this movement speed with your systems.

The yaw motor is a dc motor that is direct connected via a rectifier to the grid
so when the motors are all the same and you have 110 volts ac to rectify
we have 220 so the motor will be steered twice as powerfull

I am just guessing but someone look at this.

Cor

the yaw movement in 360 degrees on manual motion takes with a 5kw swg 48 seconds
the voltage on the dc terminals is here 283 volt

when the yaw motor is all the same then i can imagin that the power is half when connected to a 110 volts grid

When I was in the factory I did not see other yaw motors
the 9e til the 13e November i be in the factory again and will also ask there

Don Gamble

1st November 2010, 17:54

You are correct, as I had indicated earlier, the company that replaced my first controller installed a modified controller ( supposedly as directed by SWG) that only supplies 110 volts to the yaw motor. I have been unable to get SWG to confirm or deny that they directed the modification in an effort to prevent any more problems with the yaw motor. I would put 220 back into the yaw motor, but want to make sure that I rewire it correctly and can't get any help from SWG. Can you provide a schematic so I can restore the correct voltage to the yaw motor? The way the controller is wired right now there is no voltage going to the controller unless it is receiving it from the grid. This removes the ability of the controller to turn the generator out of the wind if the grid is lost. I haven't timed it but I'm sure it would take at least 2 minutes to turn 360 degrees.

Don Gamble

1st November 2010, 17:55

For what it's worth the yaw motor I have is rated for 240 volts

Cor van Houtum

1st November 2010, 19:16

Hello Don,

you can find the scematics and manual on my site
http://www.draaistroom.net/5kwcontroller.pdf

you must look easy to this controller , it is not rocket sience

the main power supply is only working for the PLC and the relais
the input from the power supply is AC in a wide range
but a AC power supply can also be input powered by dc
that is why there is a extra bridge rectifier in the system
this makes sure that when the grid falls off , the system is still powered.
this is done by the generator "rest"power

The yaw motor power is also coming from this second circuit

just study the scematics and you will understand

in your case i would take a 110---220 volt transformer and power the controller grid terminals on 220 volts
in this way you get 280 volts dc out to your yaw motor
make sure the transformer is big enough to steer the yaw motor (about 500 watts)

the ac/dc power supply can handle this input also

the plc and the relais are powered behind the ac/dc power supply
so they will get always the 5 volts and 12/24 they need

first study this thing and then you understand your problem.
I think someone created you this problem !!! and thats not SWG

cor

Don Gamble

1st November 2010, 20:15

I have downloaded the controller schematic in the past from the SWG web site and it is the same one you have on your site. I do not have #1 on page 7 (the voltage dropping resistor) or item 14 on page 7 (brake modular). Instead I have a second Bridge rectifier where the Brake Modular is shown in the diagram. There is nothing in my controller that looks like the Voltage Reducing resistor. That is where the confusion comes in, I can't get a schematic for my controller that reflects the components in my controller.

I know that my first controller had 220V going to the yaw motor and repeatedly blew fuses. That is what eventually lead to the controller burning up (a yaw motor fuse blew and the generator would not turn out of the wind). That is why the replacement controller was modified to provide 110V to the yaw motor and prevent the fuses from blowing. I was told that this modification was directed by SWG but they will neither confirm or deny that they directed the modification.

If SWG is such a great company then why won't they provide any information to their end users? Why won't they even respond to any e-mails? - they just ignore them unless the e-mail involves sales!

I am getting ready to spend another $1200-$1300 to get my interface and inverter repaired by Power One (one final time) and if they burn up again due to the bad controller than I'm done trying to get it to work. In my opinion SWG has the worst customer service of any company I have ever dealt with as they do not feel responsible for the support of their product! SWG keeps referring me to SkyWing Power to resolve my problems, but SkyWing Power won't do anything unless I send them money and I don't feel that I should have to pay to get SWG's product to work correctly.

It seem that every post comes back to the fact that if the product had worked in the first place then I would not even be on this forum complaining about the product. I know that Ken Hall has had continual problems with his generator and it is currently not working. I have talked with 2 other SWG generator owners in Carson, Iowa and they have given up and spent almost $30,000 each to have their SWG generators replaced by Bergey's, I only wish I had purchased a Bergey in the first place and I don't think I would be having these problems.

Sorry to go on for so long, but everytime I think about the time and money I have wasted trying to get this SWG generator to work it makes me more and more frustrated and this is my only way to vent since SWG doesn't seem to read their e-mails.

I only hope that everyone else has better luck trying to go green than I have!

Cor van Houtum

2nd November 2010, 16:50

Don,
try this one
http://www.draaistroom.net/5kwcontrollerII.pdf

this is the manual of a later version (white PLC)

The big resistor is not used anymore
the brake-unit is not in this version

I hope this one will help
otherwise I give up !
You keep on turning in circles.
I have explained now several times why the fuses blow
I gave new values for the PLC
I told you to go back to the original 220 volts on Yaw

This controller is just a easy thing that find its steering in a complex PLC program
but the outline is just relais based.

just pull all the cables out of the box and follow them
take a multimeter and measure the contacts of the relais
in this way you understand what it is doing

the big relais on the left is nonsens
you can get rid of it (it is for off grid only)

focus on the white relais this is the only relais working for the dumpload

Look at the secondairy rectifier board
find out where it is getting its input power from
you will find that the power is from the grid and also from the generator

If you do all this then you must understand how the controller is working
if you still not have a clue then it makes no sense to have more drawings.
this thing is no rocket sience.

kind regards

Cor

Ken Hall

2nd November 2010, 17:27

Cor,

What should the fuse sizes be for the yaw motors and the controller?

My fuses -- both positions -- were blowing when we first started the system up last spring and before we modified it to match Don's. Given the issues we had with our inept installer, there is no guarantee the correct sizes were installed.

Is it correct to infer my J1 and J2 overtime alarms maybe because the system is not slewing as fast as designed and the PLC thinks something is wrong? And restoring slew voltage to 220V may fix? (although the J alarms did not appear until recently)

I appreciate your patience with me.

Ken

Cor van Houtum

2nd November 2010, 18:04

driving the motor on 220 volts you should use 5 amps that must be enough
but only in combination with the reduced plc settings

Don Gamble

2nd November 2010, 18:18

I agree it's not rocket science and I do appreciate your help.

The controller manual you reference does look more like mine, however it does not show the second rectifier and does show the yaw motor voltage dropping resistor. The manual does not contain a schematic like the earlier version did so it really doesn't help to find where the 220V DC is to come from for the Yaw Motor.

I have 3 years of electronics training and have built my own house including networking 8 computers so the electrical and electronic side of things is not a mystery to me either. Granted, I'm not an experienced Wind Turbine installation expert, but I do consider myself have an above average electrical and electronics background.

I have no problem finding 220V AC in my controller but 220V DC is non-existant in my controller. I want to make sure that I pull from the proper location in the controller as I don't want to damage this controller as I'm sure SWG would not replace it.

If I understand you correctly my second rectifier should have 220V AC going into it and 220V DC coming out of it. Do I understand this correctly, like I have said, I have only 110V AC going into the controller and 110V DC coming out of it.

I have to assume that the inputs on the second rectifier are supposed to be the 220V AC line, and that the output of the rectifier is supposed to power the Yaw Circuit, is that correct?

Again, I appreciate your help and your patience and only want to get this system to work.

Cor van Houtum

2nd November 2010, 18:54

lets start again

the numbering in the manual picture is wrong

the yaw dc is coming from the board 9 and rectifier 10
this is one unit.

input on this board is grid 220/230 output is 280 volts DC
the relais 4 and 5 are switching this DC output voltage and reversing the polarisation
SO NEVER PUSH TWO AT THE SAME TIME AND NEVER PUSH WHEN THE TURBINE CONTROLLER IS IN AUTO ANGLE MODE.
fuses from the grid input will blow because of short circuit and relais burn in the contacts.

There is NO fuse between the board 9 and the relais 4 and 5
if two relais are pushed at the same time the short circuit is made before the fuses that go to the yaw motor.
this is why the yawmotor fuses will stay intact and the board will blow or when lucky the ac grid input fuses.

So the grid voltage is only found at the input of board 9 and on the input of power supply number 16

Check this first and let me know

The system is also powered by the generator
this is because it must have power when the grid fails.

I will make pictures for you and put them here tomorrow

cor

Cor van Houtum

2nd November 2010, 19:14

the power supply is not powered by AC grid but with DC output from board 9 and in parallel the output DC voltage from the main rectifier that comes from the gen..

what they do here is putting two rectifier dc outputs in parallel
this makes no short circuit but the power supply wil draw its power from either source available.

this makes it possible that the powersupply is powered by the generator when the grid is failed

Don Gamble

2nd November 2010, 19:23

I just want to tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to answer all of my questions. I have asked a lot of people for help and so far you are one of the few who actually took the time to help me try to get my generator going. I wish you lived closer as I would take you to dinner as a token of my appreciation.

Thanks

Cor van Houtum

3rd November 2010, 03:34

buy me a ticket :laugh:

Ken Hall

4th November 2010, 20:28

Cor, Don,

My circuit analysis is a little different but... I've been wrong before and things have never quite added up.

I've understood the role of relay 7 being to shift the power going to the yaw motors and the PLC's power supply from grid supply to internal supply.

Leads 14, 15 are coming from the main rectifier -- already DC and will provide the power to keep the system at 90 degrees when the grid is lost. Leads 10, 11 are coming from the grid -- still AC. Output leads 12 and 13's power source depends on the state of relay 7. Leads 14, 15 provide power through the normally shut (de-energized) contacts.

Output leads 12 and 13 go to the combined rectifier/filter (aka the "rejector" on drawing 10) and then to the relays as 16, 17.

What doesn't make sense to me is... we're re-rectifying DC if the grid is missing. The capacitors will dampen out any spike on the system as relay 7 shifts and will also smooth out the DC a bit.

Also, we're feeding a power supply DC to a terminal label AC.

Ken

Cor van Houtum

5th November 2010, 04:05

Ken you are right,

the power supply unit is a switching power supply without a transformer
this means that it does not mather to supply dc allready into the ac bus

to create a double power input line
1e coming from the grid (rectified)
2e coming from the main generator (rectified)
putting these outputs in parallel will have no effect towards each other
but they are complementairy to eachother
when one power source fails then the other one is still there.
the voltage however will rise to the highest power source
in this case the lower one will just stay behind and no current will be there

when the grid fails the power needed for the powersupply is supplied through the rectified
generator terminals DC

This is for the safety so that the yaw motor and the plc , and the relais are always powered.

when this is wired correctly you can unplug the grid and the plc will not die and keeps working (when the gen is spinning)
But the dumpload relais will close and start to connect the 3 phase from the gen to the dump resistors

when the voltage or windspeed or current will reach the trigger level programmed in the plc , this one will activate the relais for yaw and turn the gen out of the wind.

at this time the gen stops and the complete system is dead.

now it wil only come alive when the plc is powered again
in this situation the power will only come back trough the gen when the wind has turned.
then it repeats it self and so the generator will turn out of the wind all the time when the grid is failed.

But on the otherhand the system can not turn it self into the wind when the gen is stopped.
that is why we also need the grid to get the system started.

In a battery situation this is done with the battery power available.

So yes the AC terminals are supplied with DC

kind regards

Cor

Cor van Houtum

5th November 2010, 04:13

we have nice winds this week
yesterday 4 Nov 2010
our swg turbine 5kw on 15 meters has put 52 kwh back on the grid in one day
the 10kw on 12 meters has put his record of 81 kwh in one day on the grid.

just for your info

cor

Ken Hall

6th November 2010, 15:53

Cor,

I had a 40kw-hr day last spring before my wind-interface failed the first time.

We've had plenty of wind, too much apparently. Came home, from my window, watched the system turn into and out of the wind just like it's supposed to (still with the bastardized setup). Walked out to my shed and discovered the Aurora wind interface's dump function had failed on and my diversion load was a 5kw space heater.

Attempted to restore my system to "normal." First step -- I restored the normal wiring to the yaw motors off of board 9/10 (previously came from an add-on 125VAC rectifier). Before I decided to jump the voltage to 240V, I rewired the 240V at the grid connections to 125V --- manual indicates system can work with a 120V grid. No luck, relay 7 kept chattering -- must need 240V to keep it in.

Put 240V back to the grid connections -- both grid fuses blew. Try 2, one of the yaw motor fuses blew.

Measured voltage at 9/10 -- 350V DC from 245V AC at relay 7.

Did SWG upgrade their yaw motors (with a built in resistor) when they dropped part #1, the voltage dropping resistor? I don't see how a 240V DC motor couldn't help but blow its fuses with 350VDC put across it. A strong wind day could create even higher DC voltages.

Could Don and I have new controllers with old version turbines?

Could you ask SWG when you visit?

Thanks,

Ken

Milan Slovak

9th November 2010, 14:18

Hello,

I am a little new to Wind Turbines, but have a couple comments that need answers that have to do with the discussion, and the answers may help others

Is the YAW on all turbines?
I thought the smaller turbines used the tails to turn into the wind?

Would not a Variable Pitch turbine be an answer to this problem by limiting its own speed & power output?
With the Variable pitch turbine, would the voltage sensing relay be needed?

Seems like these are coming out of China as well.

Don Gamble

9th November 2010, 14:46

I have heard that the variable pitch turbines are much better than the ones that depend on a control circuit and yaw motor to control it's speed, but have not seen any up and running so I could not confirm that. I would probably have bought a turbine with variable pitch blades had they been available when I made my purchase but they were not and I have too much invested in this generator to start all over again. All of the problems I am having could have probably been resolved had I received some support from SWG, the manufacturer in China, but they have chosen not to support their product in any way.

Don Gamble

9th November 2010, 14:49

I was just getting ready to ship off my inverter to Power One, but noticed that my wind speed is no longer showing on my SWG display and the generator will not turn in or out of the wind unless in the manual mode. Does anyone have any information on what kind of readings I should be seeing coming out of the wind speed indicator. I have determined that I have the 5V going to the unit (red wire), varying voltage coming from the wind direction indicator (yellow wire) and the wind speed always has 5V (Green wire). Anyone with any ideas??? I don't want to pay to have the inverter repaired (Approx. $1,150 including shipping) if the controller is not going to turn the unit in or out of the wind.

Thanks

Rob Beckers

9th November 2010, 15:00

Don, at the risk of sounding like a broken record :violin: , you absolutely have to have a fool-proof way to keep overvoltage out of the inverter. One way that works reliably is with an Omron voltage sensing relay and contactor. See the wiring diagram I made (http://www.solacity.com/Docs/Stacked-Inverter%20Wiring.pdf); while this is for stacking inverters, the overvoltage part with the Omron relay applies the same to a single inverter.

-RoB-

Don Gamble

9th November 2010, 15:34

My wind direction is working correctly, however I continually show 0 wind speed. Any ideas?

Milan Slovak

12th November 2010, 11:07

Rob,

When your contactor opens up, what happens to the power the turbine is still creating?

M

Rob Beckers

12th November 2010, 13:41

Rob,

When your contactor opens up, what happens to the power the turbine is still creating?

M

Hi Milan,

The diagram shows overvoltage protection for the inverter(s). It does not concern itself with the wind turbine. The turbine's controller has to take care of keeping it under control (or at least not let it speed up to the point of self-destruct). Even the Chinese turbines will do so, by switching on a dump load and/or yawing out of the wind. The problem was/is that this doesn't keep them from going over 600V DC. The Omron and contactor prevent that from doing damage to the inverter.

-RoB-

Milan Slovak

12th November 2010, 15:18

Rob,

Would not the PVI 7200 dump load resistors that kick in @ 530V protect the inverter?

The turbine is also a 3 phase output directly to the PVI 7200, there is no other controller to dump the load.

Thanks for reply

M

Rob Beckers

13th November 2010, 07:54

It depends on the turbine: Many are run away so badly by the time they reach 530V that even a large dump load won't slow down the turbine (it allows 30A, so that works out to 15kW, though I have a feeling those 20A fuses on the input will blow very quickly if you tried that kind of load). Then, the margin between 530V and 600V is pretty slim, and it takes a wind turbine only a moment to speed up enough to reach that, if the load is not large enough. In other words, relying on the wind box is risky business.

In honesty, the dump load feature on the Power-One wind box is poorly conceived and almost useless IMO. I don't really know of anyone actually using it either (not long term in any case). People buy the wind box because it is UL/CSA listed, so it avoids problems with the inspector. Getting an unlisted rectifier/controller through field inspection can be very costly. Other than that it's just a glorified rectifier. One nice (though unintended) 'feature' of the wind box is that it will blow up itself at 600V, thereby saving the inverter behind it. Replacing a wind box is cheaper than replacing an inverter.

-RoB-

Ken Hall

13th November 2010, 15:58

May be coincidence but, like Don, I'm having wind speed issues. Only mine is lack of movement by the cups. They were squeaking a few days ago but today, they appear to be stuck even in 20+ MPH winds. There was a lot of debris in the air the last couple of days, something could have jammed.

Before I have to rent a lift twice, any recommendations? Any suppliers? Do they all provide a standard signal?

Ken

Cor van Houtum

14th November 2010, 07:55

The insite of the anemometer is a simple thing
just unscrew the 3 long screws and the thing comes apart
on the central axis where the cups are on is a encoder wheel
this runs in a light sensor and counts / makes pulses

the number of pulses pulsspeed is read by the plc

you can not measure this with a normal multimeter you need a scoop to measure the pulse
but the top/top value is the same as the power supply value

some systems work on 5 volts other on 12 or even 24 volts

normaly the anemometer print board can not be defect , there is almost nothing insite

the bearing could be stuck mechanic

just open it and find out

beware of the small cables to the plug , not to pull to hard

good luck

Ken Hall

14th November 2010, 18:12

Cir,

Got a free lift to the top of my tower by my tree trimmer.

Wind speed cups were mechanically stuck. Felt resistance when I pushed on them. Would only turn freely when I pushed up lightly on the bottom of the shaft.

Took three bolts out and eased the plate down a couple of cm. Nothing obviously wrong. Pushed up on shaft and added a couple of drops of light oil under turning wheel.

Cups spun freely when I reassembled it.

Unfortunately, system reads zero speed when I turn it on. Cups are still spinning.

Any ideas on how to troubleshoot from the ground?

Ken

Cor van Houtum

15th November 2010, 00:25

The swg anemeter is sometimes a dual version
speed meter and direction are in one housing
when you take this thing appart you should consider that the position must be marked on the housing before unscrewing

when fitted wrong afterwards then the position will not be correct anymore
the wind position meter is a potentiometer insite
and the flag position is important

Ken Hall

15th November 2010, 13:33

Wind direction seems fine. I did not remove that portion of the assembly.

Wind speed assembly went back together in the original alignment.

Either the wires are exremely fragile or the oil has moved somewhere it should not.

I could not see what serves as a bearing surface for the rotating notched wheel/cups assembly but that seems to have been the source of the drag.

I suppose the spinning disk could have flung the oil onto the electric eye...?

Ken

Cor van Houtum

21st November 2010, 06:25

Hello Ken,

as I am back from China now I have some time again to try to help you,

What is it you need on information
Do you have the combination anemometer/directionflag with the 4 pin plug ?

cor

Ken Hall

22nd November 2010, 21:17

Cor,

Welcome back,

I have a direction flag on top and an anemometer on the bottom at the end of a curved pole fixed to the back of the turbine.

It has a 4 wire cable.

Renting a lift to get me to the top of my unit costs about what my annual savings from generation will be and this anemometer jammed up after about a year of service. Since the direction indicator is still good, is there a way to feed a tower mounted anemometer into the circuit. Wind speed may not be as accurate but my savings would be substantial.

Did you learn anything about the missing dropping resistor for the yaw motor? I've found a source if I need to add it back in.

Thanks,

Ken

Don Gamble

16th December 2010, 21:15

Does anyone have a response to Ken's questions regarding the voltage limiting resistor that seems to be missing on our control circuits or any ideas why both of our wind speed indicators quit at about the same time?

These things cost too much to just sit here.

Thanks

Cor van Houtum

17th December 2010, 03:26

I have stock of these meters
do you want me to sent you a new one ?
it is complete with stickpole and cable with plug
150 USD ex freight

and why do you think you need a sort of resistor insite your controllerbox
just because you saw it in a older manual ?

I have the same systems up and running and no problems
and also no "voltage resistor"
the yaw motor is changed for many years now.

I do not want to be nasty, but if you do not want to lower the tower or rent a machine to get on generator level,
I think nobody can help you :mad:

Don Gamble

17th December 2010, 21:57

I don't think anyone here has the right to be upset more than I do. I'm the one that has thrown good money after bad while trying to get what should have been an operational system to operate. I understand why it may upset the people who sell and install the SWG generators to see the product being put down, but the fact is that I should not have to spend another dime to get my unit to work! SWG should be providing the parts necessary to make this system work at no charge to the purchaser.

I appreciate the information that you have provided and my beef is not with you, but rather with SWG.

My last attempts to communicate with SWG have been unsuccessful as I can no longer connect to the web site, does it still exist?

At this point purchasing another wind vane would be a last resort as it would take over a year to recover the cost through energy savings.

Ken Hall

30th December 2010, 17:27

Cor,

Back from holiday travels.

Agree, I'll need to go aloft to fix my problem. What I can't afford to do is to go aloft multiple times. My last trip up changed my mechanical problem to an electrical one.

Since Don and my wind speed units have both failed within a year of service, I would like to fully understand what is happening and what options there might be to avoid annual trips aloft to repair/replace the wind indicator. Annual trips will eat up all my savings.

SWG's web site has a picture that looks like it has the wind station on the tower. If I can work the wind station from the tower, I won't need to rent a lift.

http://www.f-n.cn/UploadFile/2008717162657.jpg

I keep asking questions about the resistor because my (and Don's) system will not work properly when 220VAC is converted and then fed to the yaw motor per the manual. They blow fuses. The make-it-work rewiring to run converted 120V to the motors eliminates internal power capability. But, if I lose the grid, the turbine can not turn out of the wind.

I tried wiring 120Vs as the grid power and restoring the internal power wiring but the power transfer relay kept chattering at 120Vs. It would not lock in.

I've concluded I have an "old" yaw motor with the "new" controller and need to add the resistor back into the circuit.

I have just received my repaired Power-One wind interface unit and will get it wired in when/if the weather breaks -- it may be Spring -- last year, an ice storm coated everything -- it was 6 weeks before the weather systems thawed.

Ken

Rob Beckers

31st December 2010, 07:03

While I understand the reluctance for "annual trips aloft", most small wind turbines require annual maintenance, or at least an annual inspection (which involves going up there). These are mechanical devices that live in a very hostile environment.

In a reasonably windy place a wind turbine can run 7000 hours or more per year. If it were a car, going at 50 km/h (30 mph), it would travel 350,000 km (or 200,000+ miles)!

The annual inspection is a chance to find out when things are about to break (slop in the bearings, nuts coming loose etc.) before they do real damage. Many small turbines also need a little grease here and there on an annual basis. Planning, and budgeting for annual maintenance is really something that you should take into account when contemplating a small wind turbine. For that reason I advise people to get a tilt-up tower if possible; it is not too difficult for a home owner with reasonable DIY skills to learn to safely lower and raise a tilt-up, so they can do the annual themselves.

-RoB-

Dale Sheler

31st December 2010, 08:00

A solid guyed tower could be converted to a tilt up guyed tower pretty easily.

Don Gamble

25th January 2011, 22:23

Had I known when I purchased the generator that I would need to inspect the generator yearly, I'm sure I would have spent the extra money for a hydraulic tower, instead I got a custom made tower made of welded angle iron for strength. Of course if I had known then what I know now, I would never have invested in wind power, especially on a generator from a Chinese company.

As I have stated before, the installer of my generator went the way of numerous installers of Chinese generators by filing bankruptcy, so there is no support from the installer.

The company that manufactured the generator and controller shows no interest in supporting the product that they manufacture as is evident by the fact that they will not only not provide replacement parts or components to replace defective ones, but they will also will not provide any supporting information regarding performance characteristics or troubleshooting info. The manufacturer has chosen to ignore and not respond to any e-mails I have sent them over the last 4 months requesting assistance. The owners manual that was received with the generator and controller does not match the units that were received, so they are of little help.

I personally feel that the manufacturer should at the very least, try to help the end users to get at least some of these generators and controllers working. Yes, the installer did modify the controller to reduce the voltage going to the yaw motor from 240v to 120v in an effort to stop the yaw motor fuses from blowing and I was told by the installer that this recommended by the manufacturer, but again the manufacturer would neither confirm or deny that they directed the modification. I have asked for information so I could undo the wiring changes that were made to the yaw motor system and restore the 240 volts to the yaw motor, but again I have gotten no response from SWG.

As it stands right now, I have the generator operating (at a greatly reduced capacity) by reducing all of the controller settings in the hopes of not damaging the inverter as been 3 times in the past. I'm happy to be able to see it running when I come home from work, but very disappointed in the performance.

To be honest, I'm getting pretty tired of hearing what I should or should not have done.

What I really need now is help! There have been a couple of other local installers that have come by offering to make my generator work but for a charge of around 10,000 US and I think of the saying "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me". I am more than willing to do the repairs myself but find it difficult to do lacking any information from the manufacturer. I am doing my best to support the green initiatives by using low wattage LED and fluorescent lighting and driving a hybrid car and would really like to reduce emissions and my electric bill by producing some wind energy but am becoming very disappointed in the whole wind energy concept.

Is there anyone out there that tell me where I can get a wiring diagram so I can put 240v back into the yaw circuit? Does anyone have any ideas on why my wind speed indicator (and my neighbor's) failed only one year into service or how to troubleshoot/repair the unit?

Any help is greatly appreciated!!!!!

The users manual does not discuss error codes, what they mean, how to correct them or how to clear the error codes.

Ken Hall

28th February 2011, 22:12

All,

Don and I are slowly taming our systems.

We've figured out how to get 240V DC to the yaw motors without the fuses blowing.

Don figured out the anemometer shaft was sliding down through its bearing and the wheel was no longer passing through the detector. A little re-engineering and we're both back working.

We have some ideas on how to split the controller into 120V and 240V sections to restore the self-powered control functions.

Don's shorting problem was due to an excessive amount of cable in the upper section, also fixed.

I've decided to shut my system down whenever winds are forecast to go over 25MPH. Making a dollar while risking hundreds in repair (my tower doesn't tilt, a trip up is a minimum of $225 in lift rental).

We will never get our money paid back with these systems but we might cover our operating costs.

Ken

Cor van Houtum

1st March 2011, 05:37

I hope now that your negativity will go away,
as I have said before it has to do with knowledge of systems.
I am still sure that your systems can work without any problems.

But do not think that it will never break down.
it still is a low cost system and the quality of some parts is also low cost.

When you put up a professional anemometer then this thing wil cost at least a 1000 dollars. this one has heating insite to prevent freezing.
this is a well known issue. but has not to be a big problem if you know this.

the one you have , cost not even a 100 dollars.
900 dollars saved ? or a lot off trouble ! depends on your tower.

I state , never put a windturbine where are electronics insite on a pole that can not easy be lowered.
Better , never put any turbine on sutch a pole.

but I am happy for you that you regain some convidence in the system.

This is not rocket technology

kind regards

Cor

Terry Roberts KC

15th March 2011, 11:59

I have read several posts about the quality of SWG turbines and am a little surprised by all the trouble people are having with them. I live in the Kansas City area and have installed several of these with no major problems.
First let me say these should not be installed by people who are not familiar with turbines and how they work. You will have trouble. These are fairly complicated machines and have to be tuned in to perform properly.
I am familiar with Prevailing Wind in Iowa. They didn't have a clue what they were doing and should have never been in the wind business. I think everyone who dealt with them got ripped off. Some of their workers started another wind company and are now selling Bergeys. These are the same people that could not install SWG units.

I have tried to fix a few from Prevailing Wind and most of the controllers are burnt up so without getting some new parts they probably will not run properly. Their towers are too small to last a strong storm. They sway in the wind on a normal day. Several have had blades on backwards.
Although SWG will not run out of the box, once set properly they will generate many kwh without alot of maintainence.

Cor van Houtum

16th March 2011, 05:49

Terry congratulations,

You could'nt be more right
this is also my expierence

kind regards

Cor van houtum

Draaistroom Nederland BV

Don Gamble

19th March 2011, 08:41

I would like to make my position very clear. I appreciate the information and knowledge that Ken and I have received from Cor and Rob. My complaints are with SWG and Prevailing Power.

You are right, Prevailing Power didn't have a clue what they were doing and should never have been allowed to install any wind generators without being more knowledgeable about the product.

By the same standards, SWG should not have been allowed to sell a product without providing better support and especially without honoring their warranty. As I have already stated, they have not been willing to replace any defective parts even though the generator is still under warranty.

This whole process would have been 1000% easier and quicker had SWG supported it's product.

I have no doubt that there are some reputable installers and that Cor and Rob are among them as they seem to have the knowledge necessary to make the These generators operational. I can't help but wonder how Cor has managed to get any information from SWG and whether he has been able to get any defective components replaced under warranty because SWG has not supported my generator in any way and will not respond to requests for information.

My recommendation is to know all you can about the product you are buying and ask to see some examples of their products already installed in use and operating as advertised before you make the decision to purchase.

If I have offended anyone other than Prevailing Power or SWG, then i apologize as I appreciate the help I have received from Cor and Rob and probably would not have a working generator without their help.

Thanks

James Malone

28th March 2011, 00:11

I have not been online for a while, does anyone have any good news out of China. SWG seem to keep soldiering on and Skywing in HK and the UK just ignore me now.

There must be some authority in China that can regulate these people?

James.

Glenn Kyllonen

31st March 2011, 01:38

I feel your pain with Chinese products James as I have had some similar experiences and been dissapointed. Putting those behind me now I thought an american made product would do the trick for my low wind location.

I have not posted for awhile because unfortunately I still have no new news regarding the Hurricane Cat 5. The Hurricane Cat 5 wind generator was supposed to be here long ago and although they billed my credit card right off, they weren't so quick to deliver the goods.

They told me they were in the middle of expanding the factory and it would be a few weeks late so I am giving them the benefit of a doubt until Friday.

They claim it will produce charging voltage at just 40 rpm and produce as much as 1700 watts of power in a big wind so you might want to check them out but I would wait until you hear that someone has had a good eperience with their product first.

I will post again when it arrives and let the forum members know if it lives up to its specs.

Cheers

GFK

Roger Xia

19th July 2011, 04:28

sorry to hear so many negative reponses on China-made wind turbines.

I am a Chinese and work as a consultant for small and medium sized wind turbines. According to my observation and statistics, some Chinese manufacturers take the production of wind turbines for granted.

However, there do have few manufacturers focus on quality, service and improvement on wind turbine. Today, i happened to view the website of Eastwindpower.com (it says that they are only selling GHREPOWER products-a chinese manufacturer). From their webiste, i found testimonial http://www.eastwindpower.us/testimonials.php. the customers seem quite satisfied with the products from this chinese manufacturer. Also, i have tried some emails to their dealers and found that all comments are positive.

i decided to make a visit to this manufacturer. In the following day after my visit, i will try to give more words here.

To be continued.

James Malone

19th July 2011, 04:47

Hi everyone,

We still have not done anything and Cor has been most helpful but in this open forum as I understand it (if I have got it wrong then I apologise up front) the Asychronous turbines made by SWG seem to be the headache. Notwithstanding that people have been able to get them to work and have fine tuned them there seems to be an overwhelming number of people who just cannot get a response from them and I am one of them.

They promise the sun and the moon and then send out a product that needs all manner of modification.

TV's are pretty intricate items and so are computers but China sends these out by the millions no problem.

Wind turbines by numbers China leads the world again but everywhere there are problems with most parts of their systems.

I won't go into paint finishes, I have up some time ago and anything out of China that has paint on it we simply blast it off and repaint it. Sorry but they don't know what painting for protection means, no matter the product.

James Malone.

Dale Sheler

20th July 2011, 18:16

Glenn Kyllonen

21st July 2011, 01:32

Hello all, I finally got around to installing the Hurricane Cat 5 on my existing turbine.

Wow, this thing does not cog at all. The unit has two coils and came with two rectifiers. If you wire them in series as I did, you get charging voltage in very low winds. I am getting charging voltage all of the time now and the only complaint is that now I have a diversion load problem.

Sorry if I offended anyone with my remarks about products made in China but for my conditions the product was not a good fit.

Does anyone have experience with the Outback Grid tie Inverters?
I may be in the market for one if we keep getting all of this wind.

Cheers

Marco tsc

26th October 2011, 05:53

Hi everyone,

I'd like to share my experience with a 20kW wind turbine made by SWG.
I think that this product has a very price/quality ratio, but since the installation made 8 months ago, i've encountered some problems.

The main problem is about the yawing motor. Two yawing motors was broken without understand the reason.
Still now the generator has the yawing motor broken installed and i'm waiting for the spare part (not in warranty because SWG don't recognize it)

We opened the first yaw motor to see the mechanical part and we noticed that is broken the gearmotor beacause there is a bush instead of a ball bearing. Than the mechanical stress has destroyed the bush.
We think that this type of motor is too weak.

Another problem is the breaking of the RPM sensor which limits the control of the overspeed.
Actually the turbine is controlled only by the Vout DC.

Does anyone encountered these problems?

Thank you
Marco

Lorena Mitchell

26th October 2011, 08:31

Hello Marco
Every type of SWG we had and that I know of from others has broke. They have poor design. Cor from this Form has had success with them though so He would be the one to speak to about fixing it.:idea:

Marco tsc

27th October 2011, 03:59

Hello Lorena,

Thank you for your reply
All the SWGs you are talking about, are marked by Redriven?

is Cor the user who posted so many times in this thread? Hope he reads my problem and he gives me some infos!

Marco

Antero Rantanen

27th October 2011, 06:16

I have been testing several wind generators to find a good and reliable.

This chinese windgenerator was the best in my test and cheap.
This is my story about this, with lots of pictures about the structure etc;

http://translate.google.fi/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.poikkis.net%2Findex.php%3Ftopic %3D5033.0&act=url

It has been tree years now in my mast and has produced 100-500 Kwh per month.
No faults and not any maintenance.

Antero Rantanen
Finland

James Malone

29th October 2011, 10:37

I have not been to the site for quite a while and it seems no one else has either.

Is there any positive information out of China? They seem to be able to manufacture all manner of products but have a lot of trouble supplying wind turbines that work.

Do all their own wind turbines dotted around the country have the same problems?

James Malone.

John Szegda

29th October 2011, 21:48

Hello James,

Read the previous post by Antero. His 2kw Exmork has been flying for three years with no problems. I bought two of these units on the recommendation from a person that has been flying two 2kw and one 5kw Exmork for some time with no trouble. I flew one of My turbines for a week and had a problem with the blades moving very slow. I replaced the unit and broke it down for repairs. I noticed the epoxy used to adhere the magnets oozed on the face of these magnets, preventing the shaft from rotating freely. what I found is the Turbine parts are well built and engineered, but the assembly is poor. If you have some mechanical knowledge, these units are cheep, if you can keep them flying.

John

John Szegda

29th October 2011, 22:00

Cor van Houtum

13th November 2011, 08:20

Hi everyone,

I'd like to share my experience with a 20kW wind turbine made by SWG.
I think that this product has a very price/quality ratio, but since the installation made 8 months ago, i've encountered some problems.

The main problem is about the yawing motor. Two yawing motors was broken without understand the reason.
Still now the generator has the yawing motor broken installed and i'm waiting for the spare part (not in warranty because SWG don't recognize the gearmotor beacause there is a bush instead of a ball bearing.

Hello Marco
There are different types of machines in THE marked
Can you explain or photo some items and controlling of your turbine

Talking about à 20 kw machine. Does not tell what type/make you have

Cor

Dan ohl

27th September 2012, 02:24

Well...

There is a new page. http://www.f-n.cc that is up....
I can only sum up that we have been fooled and scamed of this company.

After trying to make them accept a vallid warranty claim for 8months,,,, we give up. They are going i circles,,,, and after some mails the same questions is once again coming...

First they tried to stall me with... -o we are going to visit you in the spring.... well sping came and went,,, and new promices....

Now they can accept warranty of the oilpipes and shims.

The shims is needed due to the construction faults where the wings is rotating to close to the generator casing... But warranty on the wings..That was damaged due to the construction faults. -WELL NO!!!! WTF....

Also... Since the oil pipes burst, the oil ran out of the system that dint have any failsafe breaks.... Meaning that the turbine could now yaw,,, or break the system.... Clear and unsafe product... Warranty of the generator... ---WELL NO...
Why.... The dumpload isnt in the same batch... WTF dumpload has nothing to do with the poor construction and untested goods....

We are f*****! And about 15.000USD less.

So untill those f****g chineese SWG will o better and tested products. DO NOT BUY THEM.

You will only get problems!!!

For photos and so on: please check www.f-n.cc a good copy page instead of www.f-n.cn

BR
/Dan

Rob Beckers

27th September 2012, 07:00

Dan, I'm sorry to hear about the turbine troubles. Unfortunately it's a familiar story; I've had a number of people that mentioned pretty much the same experience. While we're pretty tolerant on this forum, please be mindful of the language you use. We try to keep the place civil...

Can the parts of the turbine be salvaged to make something that produces power? Or is so much of it damaged or so poorly constructed that there's no hope? Cor, any comments?

-RoB-

Dan ohl

27th September 2012, 07:40

sorry...

The post was written when i got the last mail. I was little unbalanced. And sorry for that. I will improve to the next ;)

Cor van Houtum

27th September 2012, 11:04

Hello Dan,
Try to explain step by step what the problem is
and make some pictures

Cor

Dan ohl

27th September 2012, 12:19

But i will try explaining it.

The turbine got into a freespining, overspeeding due to a broken hydraulic pipe. Due to the busted break pipe the system run out of hydraulic oil. The same hydraulic oil that is used for turning the system out of the wind. => There was no means of turning the system out of the wind since the yaw is also hydraulic nor break it.

The pipes broke due to the fact that they should not at all be mounted in this vibrating enviroment. Also there was no support for the pipes.

In addition to this the wing got damaged.
Since the design we got was untested there was only 10mm between the blade and the generators housing = to little. So the wings flexed in and was seriusly damaged when they grinded of the fiberglas against the bolts

And finaly... The turbin melted down. In the controller unit that we got from SWG we could read 530RPM... It was scary,, and loud...

But
SWG offers to send us new oil pipes and shims to extend the gap between the blade and generator housing. In my opinoin also thereby confirms that
-There is a design problem with to little gap between the housing and blade.
-There is problems with the oilpipes that caused them to break. (making it extreamly dangerus)

Thereby i in my strongest words belive that the damage is caused due to design issue and untested design rather as they say. -You didnt use our dumpload.....

Also when this damage occured Chris "said" in email that they are coming to us and to inspect the damage... And this was in the spring of 2012. Now it is soon winter... And they are just going in circles. Asking now after the same photos as before and just wears us down.

But they have succeded on this!
We are defeated! We do not longer have any energy to talk and mail to the wall in china. Because they are not at all taking responsibility of thier untested, poorly designed items... :(

In addition to this i also must write. In the same shipment we got 2sets of 5meter blades to systems here that "lost thier wings" (this is yet also an other common issue). When we helped installing them there was 1set of old wings,,, yes old wings in one of the boxes. And they are rotating counter clockvise...:wacko:. We have put this aswell forward to Chris, April and now a new one.
But no one will replace them,,, no one is taking responsibility...

But i must add this mail i got. It looked promicing! But after that nothing...

_______________________
Från: WangApril [mailto:hope_521577@hotmail.com]
Ämne: RE: SV: VB: ORDER!! from sweden against Performa invoice

Dear Dan

As I said we are so sorry for all the troubles, and after viewing of your pictures, i have to admit it's really the quality problem , and it's sure we will take our responsibility to figure it out and replace the broken wing sets.
But please be kindly give me one night to learn more about your case, actually i'm a little confused, it seems there are three of our sales involved in this case, and i gonna talk to them and try to have a better idea about how to deal with it,
I'll contact you tomorrow.

Best regards
April
________________________________________

Cor van Houtum

27th September 2012, 16:45

whooooo ,Dan.
this is very bad for the bloodpressure
As i look at your pictures i think you have,

10kw Swg permanent magnet generator
8 meters rotation span
yaw and brake are both hydraulic

what i cannot see , but what also should be there is,
controllerbox with mitsubishi PLC
20 kw dumpload box
wind vane
anemometer

3x 6000 watts aurora inverters
2x diversion transformer
set all the Riso measurements in off position in advanced mode
put in a powercurve with a max load from 6200 watts on 280 volts
on every inverter.

or other brand 3phase inverter system with about 18000 watts of power

when everything is new then,

To get this system to work you have to,

bring the wings to a car or boat paintshop
and repaint the blades

make 3 subplates that should be placed between
the blades and the spinner
to increase the distance between blades and housing

disconnect all the hydraulic pipes and replace them
for flexible hose type brake tubes

unscrew all the hydraulic valves and replace all the
rings for quality ones
also on the blind plugs

check all the elctric connections and spray them waterproof
with rubber compound

make absolutely sure the dumpload has the right values

bring down all the windspeeds in the menu
put all the safety triggers in menu to lower positions

disconnect the anemometer from the turbine
put this one on a separate stick away from the turbine (rooftop)
and bring a new cable from the anemometer to the controller

install a omron measurement relais parallel on the the dc voltage controll
put this on 320 volts and let it switch the main dumpload relais into the off
position when the voltage goes above 320 volts
or when the power of the grid fails.
because of a software bug the dumpload or brake does not work
when you put the turbine controller in manual mode.

with this type of turbine always use a hydraulic tower
make absolute sure that the yawring gear can turn freely
and is not touching the tower.

before using the hydraulic tower
replace all the hoses for european tested ones
put in a hydraulic valve to prevent fall down on hose brake
fill the electric/hydraulic motor tank to the neck with oil
this s about 45 liters of oil

NEVER NEVER NEVER lower or rise the hydraulic tower when there is wind

and now this thing could work
but , never trust the turbine to a storm

I now that all of this is not in the instalation manual

my opinion is that Miss April should arrange a new turbine for you,
I met Her twise in the factory in China and must say she is willing to help
but you should tell het the problem in blocks.

never ask for two things in the same mail
Telling her that the turbine is full of problems will not help you
she is not a technician and she does not know how a turbine works.
she only knows how it should work !

I think you should not give up
but try again to adress miss April wang
no writing to others at the same time
keep one contact person.

good luck
keep us informed

kind regards
Cor van Houtum
Holland

Cor van Houtum

27th September 2012, 17:06

when filling up the oiltank again insite the nacelle,
make sure you pump out all the air on the brake claw
to do this use a thin hose and a oil can
ask a car mechanic how this is done if you not sure how this works.
it is the same procedure as a car brake repair.

then about the batteries insite the nacelle.
make sure the charging cables are connected all the way down to the
master power supply 24 volts output.
that is also used to power the PLC
in this case the batteries are on constant charge as long there is grid power.
i have seen wrong wired turbines where the batteries are charged only when the turbine spins.
THIS IS WRONG
after one day and night of no wind condition the batteries are totaly dead
and the main oilpump can not work anymore
when the batteries are empty
the power supply does not have enough AMPS to feed the pumpmotor
it needs the batteries.

Cor

John Szegda

27th September 2012, 18:43

A small flex solar panel would charge the battery when there is no wind.

Good Luck,
John

Dan ohl

28th September 2012, 02:51

Hi again.

Isnt this issues that SWG should fix in thier design? Why shall we more or less fix issues all over the system to make the system "acceptable" and as you write... "never trust the system during a storm"..

This is clearly very poor quality, unsafe but also untested products.

But in our case, Thanks for the rebuilding tips. However the generator is burnt up. There is mayor damage to the wires inside. The lack has melted!
So we need a compleat generator in order to fix the problem.

/Dan:(

Cor van Houtum

28th September 2012, 03:57

Hello Dan,

If you need a new generator , I have this system in stock in Holland

We have here the MARK II system
this is a later version.

What is changed

The Nacelle is bigger
The yaw is electric with big motor
The hydraulic brake system is spring loaded
this means when oil pressure falls that the turbine will brake
brake disk is double size
The dumpload is build insite the nacelle
the plc is also in a box insite the nacelle
The controller with touchscreen is smaller
and easy to connect with 5 wires

There are no backup batteries but big ELCO's for spare power
there are 9 bolts on every wing
the yawsystem has diskbrake piggyback on the yaw gear
The windvane and anemometer have changed to ultrasonic

I only have one in stock and you can have this for 7000 euro
ex transport
maybe this helps.

but remember you can buy it "as-is"
I wont supply any warranty this is done by SWG

Cor

Don Gamble

28th September 2012, 19:00

I know this is not going to be for everybody, but I found a new use for a tree stand (normally used for hunting). One of my biggest obstacles in maintaining my wing generator without a tilt tower was getting to the top to do the maintenance without spending $200 - $300 per trip for a rental lift. I saw a 17 foot tree stand on sale and decided that I was not going to rent a lift again. We mounted a platform and an electric winch on the tower with the winch near the top. We pull the tree stand up to the platform and secure it to the platform with 2 hinges. Then we move the winch cable to what would be about 5 feet from the top of the tree stand and pull it up using the winch and pivoting on the hinges. Once the tree stand is in position, we secure it to the tower just below the generator. I don't have a problem climbing the tower to the platform we installed, what this gives me is a way to get to the top and have a place to stand and work.

My yaw motor quit working about 4 montha ago and the tree stand worked well enough that we were able to pull the top cover off of the generator and replace the yaw motor with no problem.

The total cost for the tree stand and the electric winch was under $150 as I got them both on sale. I was about to give up on my wind turbine because of the maintenance costs, but this greatly reduced the costs.

Like I said this is not going to be for everybody and anyone trying this should make sure that the tree stand is mounted securely and that they use a good climbing harness to stay safe.

If someone can tell me how to include a jpeg photo to this forum I could attach a picture of the finished product. I am sure it would probably amuse a few people, but it works.

Rob Beckers

29th September 2012, 07:02

If someone can tell me how to include a jpeg photo to this forum I could attach a picture of the finished product. I am sure it would probably amuse a few people, but it works.

Don, adding pictures is easy: Just click the little paperclip icon right above the area where you type in a message (it says "attachments" when you hoover the mouse over it). This will open up a box asking you for a file, upload it, and you're set.

-RoB-

Andy Rhody

29th September 2012, 08:36

Yeah, post a picture of that one!

Don Gamble

29th September 2012, 11:37

It is actually about as stable as the lift I rented was.

Dan ohl

17th November 2012, 07:51

Here is an update of our looooong over due warranty object!:(

After SWG understood that the generator was just in the warranty period,they,,,,, just disappeared.... Not replying emails ecc. (not even April) Why... Well then they know that they need to replace the unit... hmm:confused:

Sooo this is the good SWG or F-N.CN company.?:mad:

Now after pushing and working very hard on this case we are closing the company! There is no money in this area, only problems and alot of lost personal mental and physical energy.:weird:

By this i want to warn everybody to buy anything from SWG. Unless you are enjoying sleeples nights, headace, and angy customers nagging of non working products!:mad:

So my hat of to all of you who still stuggling! And we are not the first company to close due to SWG and not the last!:cry:

I wish you a nice weekend with this warningful word!:o
/Dan

Dan ohl

17th November 2012, 07:52

It is actually about as stable as the lift I rented was.

Does this mean that the turbin need alot of service?

Ahmad Hadi

13th January 2013, 10:18

Hi everyone

Happy new year,this is my first post in this forum and I decided to join you after I have been advised by one of my colleague to read the answers of (Cor van Houtum) which was very useful.

Anyway I am working with a group on a (20KW WIND TURBINE SYSTEM By SWG) which has been supplied and didnt work yet ,and after long time of work we reach the point that we have the error (error 401;PLC is not connected) but the PLC cable is connected to the HMI and when we disconnected it we got error (error 402;PLC is not connected) and that confused us.

Thanks

Cor van Houtum

13th January 2013, 17:51

is the plc on ?
are the led's working
there is a switch next to the connector

kind regards
cor

Ahmad Hadi

14th January 2013, 11:37

Thank you for reply

Every thing is Ok I check it many times

This error happened when we use the manual mode and when we try to perform any order all the system with the PLC restart and this error appear.

During the auto mode the system is working without any safety (i.e. no control on charging current ,no change to the dummy load,no yawing and no break)

P.S. on the HMI (Dog van : error) and (Yawing;error)

Thanks

John Bauman

2nd February 2013, 19:21

Sounds like we should stay away from anything made in China.Wonder if that includes solar panels.The prices can't be beat,but cheap is not always the best way to go.

I thought at one time there was a store that sold everything for solar.Was it somewhere in the northeast??

thanks john Bauman york,pa

Rob Beckers

3rd February 2013, 06:50

Hi John,

You probably mean Alt-E (http://www.altestore.com/store/), in Massachusetts. They're good people, I've bought from them in the past. By the way, we also sell PV modules; Silfab and Canadian Solar, they're all made in Canada, prices will likely not be quite as low as the Chinese though. Cheapest we currently carry is Canadian Solar 225W for $0.80 per Watt, since they ship from Canada there will be some customs and brokerage cost though (we take care of that end)

The Chinese brands are a mixed bag; some are good, some are bad. Stick with the big brands such as Trina, Yingli, Suntech etc.

-RoB-

Claude Alidor

27th March 2014, 09:47

hi everybody

i m a newbie on your site , i was a seller of skywing windturbines , i have stop due to problems with the controlers .

like many of you after several e-mails to skywing , they have stop answering me .

now i have many customers who wants to know why the controlers are out .

i have find the answer on your website and i want to tell thank you to all ones for it .

so now , it seems that i need the new softwares , does someone cant send me the new ones ?

it seems that some have it .

i will be very happy to have it to solve many problems of my customers .

i m waiting for your answer .

best regards

Cor van Houtum

1st April 2014, 15:12

Does someone out there have a 10 kw SWG TURBINE generator ?
At this moment we have two defect

The first one is the 10 kw square box generator nacelle with hydraulic yaw
the generator is short circuited

the second one is the 10 kw electric yaw nacelle where the plc is insite the yellow box insite the nacelle
We had this unit in stock for 3 years now to show customers
it has never left our showroom
but because the one mensioned before became defect i wanted to help the customer with our showroom model

problems never come alone !

our showroom model does not produce more then 1200 watts and the voltage is below 120 volts even when it turns 300 rpm

So someone in the factory did not produce the generator in the right way.

Even this unit has never been outsite , the factory does not realy help
the warranty period is gone

And offcourse they are right
But in the real world it does not work this way
If even a partner is not helped well , what can a customer expect ?

My customers factory warranty is also gone but that does not mean that we are not going to help

A burned up generator in a few years on a high power wind turbine is not to expect.

So does some one have a generator of this type for sale
please let me know

thanks

Cor van Houtum

Joke Evers

21st January 2016, 10:50

####
I know this is a very old thread...but here is my SWG story...

It started by a private import of the Chinese SWG 5 kw model suited for battery charging
including a 240VDC - 220VAC sine inverter (never used it)
It cost around $10000,- which was at the time just Euro 6000,-
The transport to Rotterdam including insurance was Euro 450,-

Before first trial run of 5 kw windturbine
- we modified tower for hydraulic lift-up ; using a handpump (...)
- tower foundation is a 5 meter deep, 60 cm diameter 1 cm thick metal tube driven into the ground and filled with reinforced concrete
- the foundation bolts (M45) are welded onto this tube
- around the tube another reininforced concrete foundation was laid (approx 3000 kg)
- original rotor hub never used: this is not the way to mount polyester wings, it's a ridiculous and dangerous design !
original hub has severe inbalance: conus was off-center...
very poor theads M12 (bolts are 12.8 strength) with much too mich play !!
the SWG factory corrected this by hamering around thread-holes.
(infact all threads, including the original monopole tower, had too much play)
so overall very poor craftmanship !
the welding and zinc plating seemed fair.
- home-made rotor hub: wings are fixed between 2cm nylon plates and sandwiched between 1.5 cm thick metal plates
- original turbine has no intrinsic safety : only yaw and 6kw dump heater
(resistance 25 ohm; the turbine could not be controled with this dump resistor)
- added a 60 cm hydraulic brake disk to rotor hub: when rotor speed >~ 220 rpm brake is activated (by hydrolic max-flow valve )
- original controller was never used: my system is meant for direct water heating.
- original controller: loose wireing, unsuitable relays (relais voltages ranging from: 24 VDC, 24 VAC, 220 VAC, 110 VAC ...)
there is no 24 VAC and no 110 VAC power source present in controller..
the controller was intended for battery charging: it would have never worked.
again:overall very poor electical craftman-ship !
- homemade PWM heat/wind controller (using a 1600V,120 Amp IGBT ) with several safety precautions
(max current (AC/DC), max voltage, max RPM : all activating 90 deg. yaw or dumpload)

First trialrun

- yaw motor (not connected to the windturbine DC, but feeded from the 220V mains source+diodebridge)
burned out after approx. 5 minutes in total running...
the original yaw motor (240 VDC) is of good quality, however it is not designed for intermittant usage (start-stop-start-stop)
the original gearing is not correct: the heavy rotor (at 240 rpm) is moving much too fast...
(90 degrees turn in approx 10 seconds) leading to excessive loads on yaw bearings and of the yaw motor.
and again: poor design and poor craftmanship.
- replaced motor by similar 220 VDC with extra gearing (now a 90 deg. turn takes approx 4 minutes)

Second trialrun
- wind turbine runs fine (tested wind speeds 2 - 5 bft)
- heavy winds: original skotty diode went up in smoke...hydraulic brakes saved the turbine...pfff
- strange vibrations in the monopole mast : this turbine is unsafe.
we have to rethink the safety.
- switching to a new homemade rotorhub with passive (centrifugal) blade pitch control.
(similar to the first 3 winged "Lagerwey 10/35")
- the main generator bearing runs dry: opening the generator to inspect the bearings shows again poor engineering and sloppy fabrication
there virtually no hindrance for water/rain to get into the turbine.
the cast iron shows many casting holes and other casting imperfections.
the main bearing is very very poorly supported (considering the 6 meter rotor attached to this...)
and will probably fail in time...leading to a total ruin of the generator and wings.
we concluded :this setup will never work safely

Third trialrun
- using a 380V 12 kw electric heater as temporary solution for dumping. (not ideal)
- free running turbine (at moderate windspeeds) shows nice pitch control:
the adjustment of springs and counter weights is a bit troublesome.
- at high wind speeds ( > 5 bft) the turbine shows again heavy vibrations.
these vibrations are caused by huge play in the yaw bearing construction...
the rotor head shakes up and down !
(must admit we've never checked this...but then again it is/was brand new turbine)
the large yaw bearings are clearly secondhand and have some play...but this is not the reason for the up/down shaking
but the fitting in the turbine head is the real cause of all trouble.
the circular fitting of the top ball bearing is probably warped during welding...and was manually (grinder) reworked...
there is no way to adjust the play of the conical bearing...so it is virtually loose
- the poor "fabrication" of such important part was the sign to do a complete of the wind turbine

The above took us 4 years and produced just 500 kWh heat

Rebuild using SWG parts (this is not yet ready)
- homemade rotor axis (50 mm) with 4 SKF bearings (oil lubricated)
- homemade passive pitch control ("Lagerwey" look-alike)
- wings will be double sided attached (bolted and glued) to pitch-forks
- 90 degrees transmission (from a Deutz-Fahr rake) with 2x4 meter drive shafts (50 mm)
4 selfcentrering bearings for drive shaft support, using (agricultural) splined couplings
- a duplex chain to generator (mounted approx 3 meters above ground on the mast)
- the generator sprocket is mounted very close to the main generator bearing:
now there is no risk of breaking the cast iron.
- electric 220 VDC yaw motor (using a chain)
- air powered break on rotor axis (automated)
- manual hydraulic disk break on generator axis
(the rotor energy will assist yawing upon emergency breaking)

Conclusion: if you are in need of a expensive and dangerous hobby...just buy a SWG turbine...if you just want to harvest wind energy...please go an buy a decent model
(use active or passive pitch control !! and a system with multiple (>1) independant safety measures)

kind regards,
fam. evers

Cor van Houtum

21st January 2016, 11:41

do you have pictures to share with us ?

The last SWG 5kw we had turning at customer site , we have replaced for a windspot
we had so much trouble with this thing that we replaced it for free,
even after 3 years.

These SWG units are so dangerous that we stopped before someone is killed.

One customer has the 10kw still running but he is a mechanic him self and stopps the turbine when high winds come
I must say that this is the latest model we imported
with hydraulic brake.
This is also the one that gave almost no power from the beginning,
The magnets where not magnetic enough.
we replaced the generator (again for free)
and this complete unit was a free replacement allready from the old type 10kw that was burned out.
So you are right,
expensive and time consuming hobby.

Cor

Joke Evers

21st January 2016, 13:39

Hi Cor,

Thanks for all your information on SWG topic shared on this platform.
I can't begin to imagine what horror it must be for a SWG importer/reseller !

If we could co back in time...we would have purchased a machine like the "wind-spot".
but small pitch controlled turbines would have been hard to find, back then...

Although I dislike the idea of not being able to turn the machine -manually or otherwise- out of the wind; so active yawing would be better.

About the pictures: we only have a few pictures of the optimistic beginning...after that things got more and more grim and we had not much joy in documenting our misery...I don't think anyone wants to see that !

When we start the rebuilding -somewhere this spring- I will try to make some pictures to share.

If ,due to the increase resistance in the "drive chain", our wind turbine is not able to start at low wind speeds (despite giving it a +10 deg starting-pitch-angle) , we intent to make it into a "poldermolen / windmotor" or american wind rose ( a high torque/low efficiency windmill)
The secondary chain to the generator can be easily adapted to the lower rpm's
(typical 60 rpm or so)

we will let you know !

kind regards,

familie Evers

Cor van Houtum

21st January 2016, 14:37

hello Joke,

two people one idea
we have several swg and hummer turbines in stock
some are used and some are new boxed
I have the same idea as you have to use these 6,20 meter turbines to build
a low energie windturbine on a small mast.
with a front pole where the blades can be tight on in storm.
Also when a 6,20 turbine is low , the energy will be easy 500 watts.
the advantage of 24 hours is still there , and using the wind under the trees can work.
also building permits must be a less problem or even forgotten.
in this way we could make the turbines much saver.
also off grid is comming up these day's , or partially off grid , and there the inverters
could be used again.
The game has changed because the turbines are allready in stock and otherwise they stay there till end of times.
Let's hobby again but now not on the max but on the possibillity's

cor

Joke Evers

21st January 2016, 16:29

Cor,

In Ruurlo , a small village in the Netherlands, we have a 165 year old dutch windmill still operating as a commercial sawmill...in the centre of town.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agneta_(molen)
They get payed per hour the windmill actually rotates it's wings. (some tourist attraction... I guess)

So they installed a 10kw permanent magnet generator (Danish made) for the
hours they don't need to saw or there is much wind.

The advantage of the 'windmotor' is that they always work (look at the small 'bosman waterpump') and their rotor is fairly easy to produce from tube and thin stainless steel plate.

Like you said: they will run 24x7...even under turbulent wind circumstances
(in our case many trees) ...where the airfoil type wind turbine would not perform at all

Furthermore in our setup -using a drive shaft- the windmotor would yaw itself when the load gets too large...just like the centrifugal-pump windrose in the old days...

The only problem would be the wind pressure on our 12 meter tower in high winds. But there are many simple solutions possible.

Cor van Houtum

20th March 2016, 12:22

hello Joke
I have build one small windgenerator
its just as high as the diameter is
looks pretty big becouse it is so low on the ground
it workes fine (till now) :blink1:

big fun :D

almost no wind the last days
and it is placed between buildings

http://www.solarmanpv.com/portal/Terminal/TerminalMain.aspx?come=Public&pid=7293

Joke Evers

22nd March 2016, 05:23

Hi Cor,

Looking good !
I recognize the turbine blades,however I guess the generator is not SWG?)

Here nothing is happening,yet.
But I've removed some plastic sheets and took some pictures.
When we start finishing it, I will post some more photos.

Some tech info :
the rotor has a approx 10 degrees positive pitch angle
the pitch angle will be zero at approx 200 V~ (between phases)
the maximum negative pitch angle is 45 degrees, at approx 280V~
(tested with a variable rpm E-motor/V-belt, to drive the rotor axis)
the angle will be again at +10 degrees at approx 100V~
due to stick slip in the ball joints (ex Laverda tractor), this will probably be better after some "running-in-period"
all is tested without turbine blades, of course...

hand brake on the generator axis is hydraulic
"band brake" on main rotor axis can be activated automatically or by hand
a 220V~ refrigerator compressor will power it directly (without tank; only max pressure valve)
the yaw motor is 220VDC (manually operated; no dogvane system,yet)

kind regards,
Joke

Joke Evers

19th December 2016, 08:46

Although thing progress really slow... as promised some small pictures and update of our "SWG 5kw" wind turbine rebuild.
The wind turbine is running for approx. 3 month now, without any load attached.
It is allowed to freewheel using just it's pitch control...(*)
During the past 3 month the highest recorded wind was roughly 60-70 km/h, giving a maximum voltage approx. 250 VAC
Under "constant wind" (we don't really have that) the voltage will never go beyond 220 VAC. In case of a real storm (>8 Beaufort) things would probably be another ball game... The wind turbine picks up surprisingly easy and seems to have no difficulty with the extra resistance in the very long drive chain. So for the time being we keep using the Chinese SWG wings.

(*)In fact there is no controller...we are currently rebuilding the PWM water heater & turbine control system, using an Arduino to do the wind turbine controlling and PWM level setting. The switching frequency will be determined experimentally to ensure smooth running of the rotor, minimize vibrations in the tower and limit the heat loss in the igbt. But will probably be in somewhere around 1-5kHz. (the switching workhorse is a Semikron SKM300GA12E4 1200V 300A igbt)
The Arduino will measure the DC Volts ,Amps and RPM (of the rotor axis using a tacho generator).
It will calculate and display Watts, kWh and lookup/set the required pulsewidth at the measured voltage.
(the power curve of the turbine stored in the Arduino program using a two dimensional array)
If needed the Arduino will activate the dump-load, yawing, pneumatic band-brake and hydraulic disk brake.
And eventually the release of the brakes to return to normal operation.(a tower vibration sensor is not -yet- implemented)
Parallel to this 'computer' system there is a fail-safe conventional system with 3 max. DC voltage level relays ,
activating in three VDC steps (approx 350,370,400 VDC): dumping , yawing and in worst case braking.
Furthermore there are 3 AC max. current relays that will activate yawing (>9 Ampere per phase).
A rpm level relay is not yet implemented. (only in the Arduino controller)
After activating this failsafe there is no automatic returning to normal operation.
Of course there will be manual overrides of yawing / braking / dumping.
This control system will be (when things finally work...pfff) using a UPS (no break) to maintain turbine management in case of some net power failure...
At this moment in case of net power failure a 380 VAC 12kW heater (dump-load) will be connected.
If needed , the nacelle can be manually turned out of the wind and the hydraulic disk brake can be manually operated (both from the base of the tower).
We've added some stainless steel wires to the rotor hub and wings to limit the bending of wings...which is normally a very bad idea...it increases the noise level considerably. (at high rpm's there is a "snare" noise)
Compared to the original SWG "direct drive" setup, the wings run much closer to the tower (some 20 cm).
The 20 cm is caused by the fact that the 'nacelle / rotor hub' is also intended (for future usage) as a stiff American multi-blade windmill (24 blades) rotor...just in case our Chinese polyester airfoils should prove to be of the same quality as the rest of our Chinese garbage...and we've seen some horrible examples here on this forum.

When the turbine/heat controller is finished (and working...) we will upload some pictures and scheme

Joke Evers

Steve Tobin

1st March 2017, 09:22

Seeing all the latest blogs on wind generators from China, I will throw in my 2 cents....We bought a 6kw unit from the Chinese company- Techwellpower. The American broker/ dealer we went through was a crook (Jeff Felt), which didn't help anything, as he disappeared after the purchase. We did receive and install the basic unit and it worked, but not what it was cracked up to be....wind had to be 15 mph or greater to even move at all, it would need to spin at 200 rpm to reach 6000 watts, which was impossible, so we had to create electronic braking, as there was nothing included. The end of the story is after 2.5 years in operation, it didn't produce much and basically fell apart. The Techwellpower contact, who helped us through installation, refused to respond when warranty and quality issues were brought up.

We took the Techwellpower unit down and scrapped it....no more Chinese products! We bought an Elotec 6kw Scirocco (French) unit from Rob's Solacity Inc., installed it on the same tower, using the same inverter etc. and it has run flawlessly ever since. (picture attached) It spins easily in winds over 8 mph and the output has been the best it can be, reaching 6kw with consistent high winds.